Church leaders do not believe in a literal understanding of the Bible

[rory_20_uk]

So does that mean that women can be popes but not priests?

Or is it just another story to pick and choose at like the rest of the Bible?

One might as well. The Bible itself is picking and choosing - viewed by many as a document whose content has withstood the test of time, remaining inviolate over the years... Even though there are so many different versions and translations. To try and get a logical approach to this would hardly fit with belief in any case.

[Idaho]

One might as well. The Bible itself is picking and choosing - viewed by many as a document whose content has withstood the test of time, remaining inviolate over the years... Even though there are so many different versions and translations. To try and get a logical approach to this would hardly fit with belief in any case.

And now we get to the nub of it. Yes it's fine for belief to be belief if it's just someone's fancy or hobby. Challenging this would seem pointless and would interfering with someone's personal, spiritual domain. It's when these unsubstantiated beliefs are used to make decisions and judgements. When they are used to define a nation's moral imperative or justify political pressure on a raft of social policy, then we should certainly challenge them and demand a higher standard of rationale.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've got a Matthew 7:12 in my back pocket that would question this line of reasoning. Anyway, self-sacrifice is sometimes appropriate, sometimes not. As you illustrate in your answer to my silly hypothetical, sacrificing yourself for a child is almost always the right thing. Immolating yourself in the service of, say, a cult leader? A politician? An abstract cause? Not so much.

Well, if you Matthew's whole Gospel in your back pocket you would know that it says, essentailly "Love God, Love oneanother, forgive your enemies, tollerate evil done against you, give to those who ask."

The fact is, everybody sane already lives by the Golden rule - those who kill to feed their drug habit doubtless believe that another would kill them to feed their own habit. Ask a man why he does a thing and his response is invariably "he would have done the same to me" and this holds no matter how grievous the offence. Certainly, there are those who wilfully cause suffering in the full knowledge that they are extraordinary, we call these people "evil".

If you don't believe me, look at what people post on the Org here.

Beyond that, it is a simple fact that if everybody who had food gave to everybody who was hungry we would have no starvation in the world and everyone would be fed. That is what I mean by "self sacrifice", giving for others at your own expense - not some sort of valorisation of suicide or deliberate flagelation.

And now we get to the nub of it. Yes it's fine for belief to be belief if it's just someone's fancy or hobby. Challenging this would seem pointless and would interfering with someone's personal, spiritual domain. It's when these unsubstantiated beliefs are used to make decisions and judgements. When they are used to define a nation's moral imperative or justify political pressure on a raft of social policy, then we should certainly challenge them and demand a higher standard of rationale.

I have beliefs, you have beliefs. I think mine are right, you think yours are right. We both use those beliefs to guide our actions, but only one of us thinks the other shouldn't act on his beliefs.

You should be more tollerant.

And don't give me any "you guys burned people at the stake" nonsense - because I never did that, or anything like it, and my hands are clean of those particular sins.

[Idaho]

No we differ. I don't think my beliefs are right. I know they are often seem right, but some are irrational and cause me to make mistakes, or to snap to incorrect judgements. I challenge my beliefs, I try to look at the assumptions behind them, of the ways I need to change.

I'm sure if I pottered through the world I could find a religion that reinforced my existing beliefs, and gave me the confidence never to question again. But I reject that course.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No we differ. I don't think my beliefs are right. I know they are often seem right, but some are irrational and cause me to make mistakes, or to snap to incorrect judgements. I challenge my beliefs, I try to look at the assumptions behind them, of the ways I need to change.

I'm sure if I pottered through the world I could find a religion that reinforced my existing beliefs, and gave me the confidence never to question again. But I reject that course.

No we don't differ

That, sir, is the entire By-Our-Lady point.

I said you think your beliefs are right, not that you are utterly wedded to them.

Of course because I'm a Christian you probably suppose I don't know what "thinking" means.

[Idaho]

No we don't differ

That, sir, is the entire By-Our-Lady point.

I said you think your beliefs are right, not that you are utterly wedded to them.

Of course because I'm a Christian you probably suppose I don't know what "thinking" means.

I thought the very essence of faith was not to doubt and question?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I thought the very essence of faith was not to doubt and question?

No, Faith is believing something despite a lack of definative proof - to doubt and question is human.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Rowan Williams said there was a "certain generation" that did not know what religion was actually about, funilly enough I immidiately thought of you.

[Tuuvi]

No we differ. I don't think my beliefs are right. I know they are often seem right, but some are irrational and cause me to make mistakes, or to snap to incorrect judgements. I challenge my beliefs, I try to look at the assumptions behind them, of the ways I need to change.

I'm sure if I pottered through the world I could find a religion that reinforced my existing beliefs, and gave me the confidence never to question again. But I reject that course.

Belonging to a religion doesn't necessarily mean having the confidence never to question it again. Faith has to be maintained, and I think asking questions can make it stronger. People who won't question their beliefs are afraid of losing them, in my opinion.