First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan

[Vuk]

Firing squads are not aiming for the head, but chest.

So? I am saying they should aim for the head. If a guy cannot hit the head at that range, he should not be on a firing squad.

[rvg]

So? I am saying they should aim for the head.

Why?

[Vuk]

Why?

You wouldn't rather be shot in the head? Several .30 cals in the head is an instant death. If they are in the chest, you may still live for a while.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You wouldn't rather be shot in the head? Several .30 cals in the head is an instant death. If they are in the chest, you may still live for a while.

Costanza.jpg

[PanzerJaeger]

In this thread:

The murderer is the victim, and this is coming from.....PJ of all people.

and

Everyone who has actually been in the US military and dealt with buddies who have suffered from the war are ignored and called ignorant by armchair generals/psychiatrists.

I think my 'victim' comments have been misinterpreted. They came off as way more definitive than I meant for them to be. I should have said 'he could be a victim'. Nothing is known for sure at this point. I was attempting to make a narrower point about the Army's rotation policy and the wisdom of having troops with documented brain injuries in the field.

It goes without saying that the Afghans killed were innocent victims. And indeed, this guy will rightfully pay for his crime with his life in one way or another, whether it be in a military prison or a mental facility. There really is not much more that can be said about that. The incident is an unmitigated tragedy from every angle.

My comments were not about excusing his actions, but rather establishing motivation. We cannot change what happened, but there is a possibility that we can learn lessons from it that will help prevent future tragedies. There seems to be a rush by some in this thread to dismiss this incident as the actions of one evil man. Kill him and be done with it. Nothing to see here, folks. It is much easier to take such a position as it does not require any uncomfortable retrospection or deeper critical analysis of the environment in which he operated.

That may be the truth. There are plenty of genuinely evil people out there, and alcohol can certainly turn evil thoughts into evil actions. However, from the very early information that has come out about the man, the situation seems much more murky. This man served four tours in Afghanistan, apparently without incident. I'm just not ready to write him off as evil. I want to know why this behavior manifested itself at this late date. What triggered it? And yes, what part, if any, did his TBI or any other mental condition play in it, and how much did the Army know about his condition? There's no armchair psychology going on here. I simply stated the symptoms of TBI, which do not appear to preclude this kind of activity. At this point, everything is speculation, but those claiming that TBI absolutely could not have had any impact on this situation have no medical basis for their certainty.

The interest in TBI has nothing to do with finding an excuse. It is about preventing future incidents. How many more troops with documented TBI are in their fourth tours in combat areas? Should Army guidelines surrounding who is allowed to reenlist be reassessed? Are the myriad of mental health initiatives the Army has taken truly effective, or just wastes of time as those in this thread have insinuated? I do not have any answers, but I do not think such questions should be dismissed outright.

Yes we've had our problems but why do you think the number of detestable incidents involving our troops is significantly less than those involving your troops?

Calm down and think. How many US troops are in Afghanistan? And how many British?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So? I am saying they should aim for the head. If a guy cannot hit the head at that range, he should not be on a firing squad.

If you survive the firing squad the presiding officers finishes you with a pistol shot to the temple, when he feels like it.

[rory_20_uk]

The smearing starts: Separately, an un-named US military official told the New York Times that the suspect had simply "snapped", and confirmed that he was on his fourth combat tour. "When it all comes out, it will be a combination of stress, alcohol and domestic issues - he just snapped," the official said.

Although the soldier describes his Marriage as fantastic and had no problems with alcohol. I guess trying to angle blame away from the military who sent him back is very important at this point - better a drunk wife beater than a damaged war veteran.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think my 'victim' comments have been misinterpreted. They came off as way more definitive than I meant for them to be. I should have said 'he could be a victim'. Nothing is known for sure at this point. I was attempting to make a narrower point about the Army's rotation policy and the wisdom of having troops with documented brain injuries in the field.

It goes without saying that the Afghans killed were innocent victims. And indeed, this guy will rightfully pay for his crime with his life in one way or another, whether it be in a military prison or a mental facility. There really is not much more that can be said about that. The incident is an unmitigated tragedy from every angle.

My comments were not about excusing his actions, but rather establishing motivation. We cannot change what happened, but there is a possibility that we can learn lessons from it that will help prevent future tragedies. There seems to be a rush by some in this thread to dismiss this incident as the actions of one evil man. Kill him and be done with it. Nothing to see here, folks. It is much easier to take such a position as it does not require any uncomfortable retrospection or deeper critical analysis of the environment in which he operated.

That may be the truth. There are plenty of genuinely evil people out there, and alcohol can certainly turn evil thoughts into evil actions. However, from the very early information that has come out about the man, the situation seems much more murky. This man served four tours in Afghanistan, apparently without incident. I'm just not ready to write him off as evil. I want to know why this behavior manifested itself at this late date. What triggered it? And yes, what part, if any, did his TBI or any other mental condition play in it, and how much did the Army know about his condition? There's no armchair psychology going on here. I simply stated the symptoms of TBI, which do not appear to preclude this kind of activity. At this point, everything is speculation, but those claiming that TBI absolutely could not have had any impact on this situation have no medical basis for their certainty.

The interest in TBI has nothing to do with finding an excuse. It is about preventing future incidents. How many more troops with documented TBI are in their fourth tours in combat areas? Should Army guidelines surrounding who is allowed to reenlist be reassessed? Are the myriad of mental health initiatives the Army has taken truly effective, or just wastes of time as those in this thread have insinuated? I do not have any answers, but I do not think such questions should be dismissed outright.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?

[Ironside]

My comments were not about excusing his actions, but rather establishing motivation. We cannot change what happened, but there is a possibility that we can learn lessons from it that will help prevent future tragedies. There seems to be a rush by some in this thread to dismiss this incident as the actions of one evil man. Kill him and be done with it. Nothing to see here, folks. It is much easier to take such a position as it does not require any uncomfortable retrospection or deeper critical analysis of the environment in which he operated.

That's leftie thinking.

To play a little devil advocate and run with a bit pragmatism. Since you still have death penalty, I see that you still ruled out death penalty (it might simply be a minor communication miss). Anyway, when also considering the effect the punishment will have on the remaining Afghanistan mission, which punishment do you think will have the best effect for the US troops?

The smearing starts: Separately, an un-named US military official told the New York Times that the suspect had simply "snapped", and confirmed that he was on his fourth combat tour. "When it all comes out, it will be a combination of stress, alcohol and domestic issues - he just snapped," the official said.

Although the soldier describes his Marriage as fantastic and had no problems with alcohol. I guess trying to angle blame away from the military who sent him back is very important at this point - better a drunk wife beater than a damaged war veteran.

Depends. For his defense it's probably better to be a damaged war veteran and trying to shift the blame away. He's horribly broken some way and certainly not happy. If it's accurate about a good marriage and no drinking, then he's been broken a long time, while his wife has kept him up.

[Shaka_Khan]

If you survive the firing squad the presiding officers finishes you with a pistol shot to the temple, when he feels like it.

What if you survive that?

[a completely inoffensive name]

What if you survive that?

You are let go. No human punishment can effect superman in any way unless the bullets were made of kryptonite.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

several in the chest and one in the head? Dude survives that its only a question of "for how long?"

Point blank, even with a 9mm? Dude survives that he's the Terminator.

[lars573]

What if you survive that?

You don't, unless your Vandal Savage.

[Sarmatian]

What if you survive that?

If you survive that, they tie you to the bed and tickle you until you die laughing.

[Major Robert Dump]

nothing that has come out changes any of what I said. He should still hang. Pity he has children. You think the afghans troops kill a bunch of NATO troops now? Wait until this guy gets a prison sentence like the Kill Squad ringlieader....

As long as our mission is COIN and "training and mentoring" Afghan forces we cannot let our people go ape #$%^ on civilians and get away with it, because the rest of us pay. If we want to behave and punish the guilty in this manner, then we need to kick every afghan off of every base and stop training their people and go back to Turtling like we did the first 3 years.

[lars573]

nothing that has come out changes any of what I said. He should still hang. Pity he has children. You think the afghans troops kill a bunch of NATO troops now? Wait until this guy gets a prison sentence like the Kill Squad ringlieader....

I agree he should be tried and put in a stockade somewhere. I still don't believe in the death penalty though.

[Brenus]

@ Tiblicus: Wasn’t England that refused to extradite members of the Muslim Extremists (Rachid Ramda) responsible for a bombing campaign in France (1995) (Khaled Kelkal’s network) linked with the Algerian GIA?
Rachid Ramda was finally extradited after the attack on London, 10 years after, when the failure of the appeasement politic toward the Muslim Extremists clearly failed to protect UK territory…

Concerning the Staff Sergeant, he clearly lost his mind. So why should he be executed? I remind people it is about justice, not revenge or political goal.
And when another Staff Sergeant, Frank Wuterich, (in 2005, nineteen people were killed inside houses in the Iraqi town, along with five men who pulled up near the scene in a car -10 women or children killed at point-blank range- ) got three month for “dereliction of duty”…

Horrible crimes need punishment but more than that, Justice. And it can’t be acceptable to bow in front of a mob…
I don’t know what went in his mind… Nor I know what went in Calley’s in Vietnam (My Lai Massacre)… But when things go wrong but the combination of various factors (inexperience, frustration, losing friends, feeling of inadequacy, burn out, etc.), all this have to be balanced and assessed then sentenced.
I know that nowadays everything is genocide (Srebrenica) thanks to lawyers in the ITCY and war crimes.
A war crime is to pick at random a village, to round up the women and children in the church, to install a heavy machine gun in front of the door, to through incendiary grenades in it, then to shoot all the ones who try to escape, and then to kill all the men in the barns, in the houses, where they were under guards. It happened in Oradour-sur-Glane in the Haute-Vienne Department of France, on Saturday the 10th of June 1944. This atrocity was carried out by soldiers of the Der Führer Regiment of the 2nd Waffen-SS Panzer Division, Das Reich. On that day they killed a total of 642 men, women and children without giving any reasons for their actions. No reason…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

@ Tiblicus: Wasn’t England that refused to extradite members of the Muslim Extremists (Rachid Ramda) responsible for a bombing campaign in France (1995) (Khaled Kelkal’s network) linked with the Algerian GIA?
Rachid Ramda was finally extradited after the attack on London, 10 years after, when the failure of the appeasement politic toward the Muslim Extremists clearly failed to protect UK territory…

Concerning the Staff Sergeant, he clearly lost his mind. So why should he be executed? I remind people it is about justice, not revenge or political goal.
And when another Staff Sergeant, Frank Wuterich, (in 2005, nineteen people were killed inside houses in the Iraqi town, along with five men who pulled up near the scene in a car -10 women or children killed at point-blank range- ) got three month for “dereliction of duty”…

Horrible crimes need punishment but more than that, Justice. And it can’t be acceptable to bow in front of a mob…
I don’t know what went in his mind… Nor I know what went in Calley’s in Vietnam (My Lai Massacre)… But when things go wrong but the combination of various factors (inexperience, frustration, losing friends, feeling of inadequacy, burn out, etc.), all this have to be balanced and assessed then sentenced.
I know that nowadays everything is genocide (Srebrenica) thanks to lawyers in the ITCY and war crimes.
A war crime is to pick at random a village, to round up the women and children in the church, to install a heavy machine gun in front of the door, to through incendiary grenades in it, then to shoot all the ones who try to escape, and then to kill all the men in the barns, in the houses, where they were under guards. It happened in Oradour-sur-Glane in the Haute-Vienne Department of France, on Saturday the 10th of June 1944. This atrocity was carried out by soldiers of the Der Führer Regiment of the 2nd Waffen-SS Panzer Division, Das Reich. On that day they killed a total of 642 men, women and children without giving any reasons for their actions. No reason…

Justice means the application of the Law, in thyis case if he had killed 19 civilians in the US, majority women and children, he would be executed. So he should be executed.

I see no difference between this and German massacres in WWII (or Allied massacres of German prisoners, lets not pretend now) except scale.

Now, if you dislike execution in principle, as I do, that is an entirely different argument and not pertinant.

[Brenus]

If found guilty without doubts, if he was not suffering of a moment of mental breakdown/meltdown, yes. But if circumstantial evidences prove he was not himself that was not, in term of psychiatry, fully responsible, this have to be heard.
The law of the country have to be followed.
And I was not comparing with the murder of POW, as the people he killed were not, but civilians he killed were as the French in my example of war crime. If he planned it, then did it, it is a mass murder. But, until this is prove in front of a court, he has the right to be heard.
And yes, I am against the death penalty…

[PanzerJaeger]

A war crime is to pick at random a village, to round up the women and children in the church, to install a heavy machine gun in front of the door, to through incendiary grenades in it, then to shoot all the ones who try to escape, and then to kill all the men in the barns, in the houses, where they were under guards. It happened in Oradour-sur-Glane in the Haute-Vienne Department of France, on Saturday the 10th of June 1944. This atrocity was carried out by soldiers of the Der Führer Regiment of the 2nd Waffen-SS Panzer Division, Das Reich. On that day they killed a total of 642 men, women and children without giving any reasons for their actions. No reason…

There was plenty of reason from the German point of view.

[Papewaio]

If found guilty without doubts, if he was not suffering of a moment of mental breakdown/meltdown, yes. But if circumstantial evidences prove he was not himself that was not, in term of psychiatry, fully responsible, this have to be heard.
The law of the country have to be followed.
And I was not comparing with the murder of POW, as the people he killed were not, but civilians he killed were as the French in my example of war crime. If he planned it, then did it, it is a mass murder. But, until this is prove in front of a court, he has the right to be heard.
And yes, I am against the death penalty…

Well Calley wasn't the only one at My Lai. After all herding people into houses and then throwing in grenades. Somewhere between 350 and 500 dead... Not exactly the work of a lone individual who was having a mental breakdown. Now in wikileaks er Wikipedia it refers to several letters to senators and senior commanders that My Lai was happening monthly in some units.

So what happened to members of the unit? 25 got off because they resigned. Calley got probation.

Look at some of the incidents that happened in Iraq. Look at the helicopter gunship videos and the lengths the military went to not make it public. Look at the rape and murder cases perpetuated by teams of men. So we scorn the idea that a woman who wears a short skirt deserves to be raped, but if you are in an occupied country don't expect the same representation as an occupier. Do not expect your accused to face the same justice. Heck don't expect it if you are in Okiniawa.

Manning in the end of the day is going to get treated worse than men who have murdered women and children. So what does that say about the priority of the justice system?

[Brenus]

“There was plenty of reason from the German point of view.” To kill people they knew had nothing to do with the on-going fight… Which one? Did it improve their speed? Or their fighting capacity?

Papewaio, I am not telling the US Martial Court is the best system. I even think that this US system of reducing sentence if you plead guilty for a minor offence is in fact a default of justice…
But, the call for legal murder is not my conception of Justice.
And yes, the My Lai case is a disgrace. Yes more soldiers and NCO should have been sentenced to harsh punishment.
The same for the Staff Sergeant in Iraq who got 3 WEEKS in a country where you can be fried for less than what he did…
But it is their system

[Papewaio]

I disagree with the death sentence. I also disagree with non reciprical arrangements.

All the people in an area should be treated on par with their responsibilities not their country of origin. This also means that if the soldier was/is mentally ill he should be locked up and treated as he is not criminally responsible.

The flip side is that too many cases of premeditated or group think have been treated relatively lightly. Which eats into credibility and makes cases which require and hand out mercy look like get out of jail free cards when they are something else.

At this point I wouldn't hold my breath for mercy if it burns the upper management.

End of the day a lone superpower can do what it wants.

[PanzerJaeger]

“There was plenty of reason from the German point of view.” To kill people they knew had nothing to do with the on-going fight… Which one?

That's the issue. There is much ambiguity surrounding the Oradour-sur-Glane incident as the evidence is largely based on eye witness testimony which has been wrapped up in nationalism as the site has become a French national memorial. The German version, as told by those involved, has the Oradour-sur-Glane incident as a rescue mission for a kidnapped commander that turned into a reprisal against a partisan base responsible for the killing of German soldiers that grew out of hand when the church caught fire.

It is impossible to discern the truth, and I suspect it is somewhere in between, but I have always found it very difficult to believe that a German unit randomly surrounded a town and massacred all its inhabitants. It plays into the 'Nazis were the ultimate evil' typecast well, but it does not make very much operational sense, especially in occupied France. The SS could be ruthless, but they rarely acted without reason.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It is impossible to discern the truth, and I suspect it is somewhere in between, but I have always found it very difficult to believe that a German unit randomly surrounded a town and massacred all its inhabitants. It plays into the 'Nazis were the ultimate evil' typecast well, but it does not make very much operational sense, especially in occupied France. The SS could be ruthless, but they rarely acted without reason.

I don't even....

[Brenus]

Well, they didn't find him and kill 600 people. If it what you call the SS efficiency...

[PanzerJaeger]

Well, they didn't find him and kill 600 people. If it what you call the SS efficiency...

No, he was never seen again. What they did find was a Maquis stronghold filled with weapons and ammunition in nearly every house. They also found the bodies of executed German soldiers who had gone missing in previous months, some of them burned alive. If that was the case - and again, there is no way to know for sure - reprisal against illegal combatants to stop illegal combat was legal under Geneva '29. One could choose to believe that the unit, which had been in France for some time at that point, one day decided at random to raze a village with no reason, but, in my opinion, it makes much more sense that the incident was a reprisal action that got out of hand.

[Brenus]

Sorry, all wrong...
Otto Kahn in his statement of 1962 specifically states that he did not see "executed German soldiers" or a burned out ambulance at any time near Oradour. In fact he does quite specifically state that if he had seen such sights, then he would not have raised any objections to the attack.None of the 21 men on trial for their lives in Bordeaux in 1953 or subsequently Barth in 1983 mention actually finding "executed German soldiers". Or even of having been told about such an incident by their officers before they got to Oradour.
There are no records from German army units showing such causalities as mentioned above.
Diekmann himself never mentioned either finding the bodies of "executed German soldiers" or a burnt out ambulance when he first reported to Stadler in the afternoon of 10th June. According to Otto Weidinger these 'facts' only came to light later before the Divisional Court in Normandy shortly before Diekmann's death and later still from the papers and tapes of Lammerding's estate.
Otto Weidinger says that he met the "Maquis chief in the Dordogne Jugie (called, Gao) in Paris in1969, the latter freely admitted that weapons and ammunition had of course been stashed in all houses in Oradour at that time" (from: Tulle and Oradour a Franco German Tragedy).
If the town was as full of arms, ammunition and explosives, as some have claimed, why was not some use made of them in the defence of Oradour? After all according to Gerlach's statement, the town was a Resistance stronghold full of uniformed fighters.
The ruins of Oradour and they show clear evidence of fire damage, but none of blast damage (for example, no walls blown out). If arms ammunition and explosives were hidden in nearly every house as Weidinger claims, this is not what one would expect to see.

No, my dear Pj, Oradour sur Glane is a clear example of SS/Nazi lies, cowardice and inefficiency, exept in killing defenceless civilians...

"Jean Canou, who was a Sergeant in the FTP and was the man who actually captured Kämpfe on the evening of 9th June said, "I am convinced that the Gestapo confused Oradour-sur-Glane with Oradour-sur-Vayres, a well known centre of resistance twenty miles away. Oradour-sur-Glane was one of the most passive villages in France"

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't even....

What?

Spell it out. Use your words.

C'mon, you can do it... You don't even... What?

What is it that you do not.... get?

You don't even get how Germans could "just follow orders": Ever heard of Milgram?

You don't even get how Germans could wage war without a reason: Remind me of why the US is in Iraq again?

You don't even... What? Again, spell it out, use your words.

[Tuuvi]

All this condescension is making the windows fog up.