2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Lemur]

NI say, they have to earn their right to compete with the big boys. Win a town. Win a city. Win a state. Win a region.

Historically, doesn't this sort of thing usually happen as a result of a major party imploding, as with the Whigs and the Federalists and so forth? Seems like there's only enough oxygen in the system for two parties, and until one of them commits seppuku, nothing much changes ...

[rvg]

Historically, doesn't this sort of thing usually happen as a result of a major party imploding, as with the Whigs and the Federalists and so forth? Seems like there's only enough oxygen in the system for two parties, and until one of them commits seppuku, nothing much changes ...

Historically, yes. Doesn't mean that there can't be room for a viable third party in today's climate. Independents such as myself have been yearning for a centrist party for the past eight years or so. Doesn't mean I'll back any schnuck who proclaims himself as a new centrist party candidate. First he has to prove his viability to me.

[gaelic cowboy]

Historically, doesn't this sort of thing usually happen as a result of a major party imploding, as with the Whigs and the Federalists and so forth? Seems like there's only enough oxygen in the system for two parties, and until one of them commits seppuku, nothing much changes ...

Sometimes political parties fail/implode because people/society move on really suddenly and they have no time to adapt there positions.

The Irish parlimentary Party effectively dissolved overnight due to Britains FPTP system for elections and the emergence of a party that had a new empahsis.

The word empahsis is the key here as Sinn Fein before before that time were a party who supported freedom for Ireland under the concept of Dual Monarchy they sensed the mood and profited the rest is history as they say.

The IPP vote was still there though and it along with many members basically migrated to the new party that split from Sinn Fein over the Treaty. This party then became the first government of the new Free State.

Funnily enough it shows us that Sinn Fein hadnt learned there basic lesson that helped them before, of course looked at with the left or right eye I suppose you could say this doesnt disprove your idea though.

Also the crucialy Sinn Fein got help of a myraid of Socialist/Labour/Commie type parties who aggreed NOT to contest purely to help unseat the IPP an Unionist party members.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Historically, doesn't this sort of thing usually happen as a result of a major party imploding, as with the Whigs and the Federalists and so forth? Seems like there's only enough oxygen in the system for two parties, and until one of them commits seppuku, nothing much changes ...

Well the two main parties do their best to hamstring any others with myriad election laws and regulations such that you practically have to hire a team of lawyers to run and finance a campaign.

But that's okay because they're doing it to reform campaign finance laws, honest!

CR

[gaelic cowboy]

Well the two main parties do their best to hamstring any others with myriad election laws and regulations such that you practically have to hire a team of lawyers to run and finance a campaign.

But that's okay because they're doing it to reform campaign finance laws, honest!

CR

Clever indeed

[rvg]

One of the biggest problem with third parties is that most of them run either to the left of the democrats or to the right of the republicans, i.e. they're more extreme than the establishment. We do not need more polarization, we need more centrism.

[Whacker]

One of the biggest problem with third parties is that most of them run either to the left of the democrats or to the right of the republicans, i.e. they're more extreme than the establishment. We do not need more polarization, we need more centrism.

OK, perhaps I mis-interpreted your original comment that I responded to. You mentioned "throwing away votes" on "indies". My understanding and apparently that of others I discuss this with view the Libertarians as "indies". Hence, voting Libertarian is a "waste" as per your statement, if one accepts the definition of "anything not republican or democrat is 'indie'". Libertarian is arguably a viable, growing alternative to the current major two parties. Do you feel voting for their candidate would be a waste? Also, why do you think that voting for a candidate who is most closely aligned with your personal belief structures is "throwing away" your vote, irrespective of political party?

[gaelic cowboy]

Whats the situation at more local level though??

Do you have elected Green Party members for instance in state government?

I get the feeling people might vote Monster Raving Loony Party in there local council election or even at state level however when comes to selecting the new king you pick A or B

[rvg]

Whats the situation at more local level though??

Do you have elected Green Party members for instance in state government?

I get the feeling people might vote Monster Raving Loony Party in there local council election or even at state level however when comes to selecting the new king you pick A or B

On local and state level indies win quite often. States like Vermont for example even send socialist senators to Washington.

[rvg]

OK, perhaps I mis-interpreted your original comment that I responded to. You mentioned "throwing away votes" on "indies". My understanding and apparently that of others I discuss this with view the Libertarians as "indies". Hence, voting Libertarian is a "waste" as per your statement, if one accepts the definition of "anything not republican or democrat is 'indie'". Libertarian is arguably a viable, growing alternative to the current major two parties. Do you feel voting for their candidate would be a waste? Also, why do you think that voting for a candidate who is most closely aligned with your personal belief structures is "throwing away" your vote, irrespective of political party?

Currently in a presidential election the most an indie candidate can do is swing the victory from one major party candidate to another. The indie candidate himself has zero chance of victory. Even if my views happen to align with those of an indie candidate, I have to consider the practical outcome of my vote: if there's a bad democrat and worse republican on the ballot, and the indie will be syphoning votes from a bad democrat, then no, I will not vote for the indie. In that case voting for my choice of candidate will bring about a worse candidate than if I were to vote for lesser evil.
The problem with libertarians (since you've mentioned them) is that they're too extreme in their quest to dismantle the central government. That imho seriously limits their appeal. If they moderate their views a bit they'll find far more support and with time maybe will even become viable presidential contestants.