Murders in France

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But here's the thing. You presume that Gaelic is the historic national language of Scotland, and that English was imposed by the forerunners of the modern region of England. But that's wrong.

Gaelic was introduced to Scotland by the Kings of Dalriada, a Gaelic Irish ruling class that ruled over the natives, none of which spoke a Q-Celtic language (speaking instead either P-Celtic or Germanic languages). Hence why Scotland was called "Hibernia Minor" up until the 13th Century.

Something of an oversimplification. It's rather like saying that Offa introduced Saxon into Southern Britain, the point is that by the time Willian the Bastard arrived even the Dumonii had spoken only English for several centuries.

The English language on the other hand is no more a product of the ancient English than the ancient Scots (not that there were such peoples back then, I mean their geographic contemporaries). And people in Scotland have always taken pride in their role in the English language. You know a few centuries ago they used to argue that due to French influence on the language in England, a Scotsman could better understand Shakespeare than an Englishman. The Scots dialect (which actually emerged in Northumbria) was regarded as the purest Anglo-Saxon form of English.

Broad Scots preserves many English words that have fallen out of favour here, but it is still a mongrel dialect in the end, "bairn" as in baby is a Midlands word, not a Celtic or even Northumbrian one. As to Shakespeare, the Scots dialect is not exactly close to the South Midlands or London dialect he wrote in and in terms of antiquity it is the men of Belfast who can claim that crown.

The idea of Britishness was born when the Protestant Clan Campbell petitioned the King to change the terminology of official documents to refer to the settlers in Ulster as 'British'. Although even that was really just symbolic of what was already the reality.

I think you confuse a lot of things with what British means. The culture surrounding the nobility in the days of the Empire is not a national culture. Likewise in the first bit I quoted you refer to English culture permeating Scotland from the days when the English language became dominant. But the so-called "Anglicisation" carried out from the 12th century was really just representative of a takeover by a Norman elite. It is an example of a shared experience with England, not something imposed by England.

The culture surrounding the nobility? Oh no, I mean the culture surrounding the Civil Servants.

In any case, you are quite wrong about Protestants creating "Britishness", the idea was most definately invented by the English when Bede said, "This Island is called Britainia", he then went on to invent Englishness out of the fractious quarelsome tribes then in the Southern part of the Island.

Politically, however, the current order was first realised by Athelstan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Æthelstan and since that time the objective of all English kings has been the rule of the whole Island, from England

What really matters is who we are. The ordinary person. I am, in the words of what anyone across the Highland line would tell you up until a century ago, a "Saxon". I am part of a British nation. British history, British culture, British state.

And I see the dismantling of those things to be very destructive.

I suspect if you asked a modern Highlander you would get a nasty surprise, if the Welsh and Anglo-Welsh are anything to go by. Disowned by the Highlands and not accepted by the English, that puts people in Southern Scotland in an awkward cultural position.

I do not believe there has been a changing identity here for thousands of years.

Eh? Picts, then Gaels, then Scots?

That's a pretty big change.

The English language was forged in Scotland (and simultaneously elsewhere), Gaelic was not.

Scots Gaelic is different from Irish Gaelic, but modern RP has more in common with Shakespeare and Milton than Middle Scots.

[/quote]I don't think that any ruling elite changed the fundamental character of the peoples here. As I said Scotland was effectively an Irish colony. It was assimilated to some degree but Gaelic never crossed the Highland line. And like I said the term 'Anglicisation' is not appropriate really for the establishment of Norman customs at the kings court.[/quote]

Gaelic never crossed the Highland line? Oh come ON, Pict was completely wiped out and until the High Middle Ages the Scots outside ancient Bernica spoke Galic, as did the King. If a ruling elite could not influence a people then the English would not speak English, but instead dialects of Brythonic Celtic like the Welsh and Bretons.

A new religion?

Christianity, brought by Irish Monks.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It just struck me that this exchange between a Scotsman, Irishman and Englishman going on here is pretty comical.

As you would expect, the Scotsman is the fiery crazy guy and the Englishman the voice of moderation of reason.

Although gc seems to be taking more after the Englishman so he must be one of those Anglicized 'West Brits'.

I will write a more proper reply later, got work soon until 11...

[Hax]

You're all non-believing scum anyway, at least you'll be equal under the coming of Sharia law, right?

[Fragony]

You're all non-believing scum anyway, at least you'll be equal under the coming of Sharia law, right?

We really have to cook up a new name for pre-emptive surface to feet homing toes. It can't be helped, you are just walking and suddenly you are standing on somebody's toes. How did they get there? Why is the person attached to the toes running of crying? Did he always want to run of crying?

[gaelic cowboy]

It just struck me that this exchange between a Scotsman, Irishman and Englishman going on here is pretty comical.

As you would expect, the Scotsman is the fiery crazy guy and the Englishman the voice of moderation of reason.

Although gc seems to be taking more after the Englishman so he must be one of those Anglicized 'West Brits'.

I will write a more proper reply later, got work soon until 11...

I would have said it's more to do with being a landowing member of the bourgeois from the West of Ireland.

[Hax]

We really have to cook up a new name for pre-emptive surface to feet homing toes. It can't be helped, you are just walking and suddenly you are standing on somebody's toes. How did they get there? Why is the person attached to the toes running of crying? Did he always want to run of crying?

Okay, you've gone from incomprehensible to full-blown East-Asian style koan wisdom. What were you even trying to say?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It just struck me that this exchange between a Scotsman, Irishman and Englishman going on here is pretty comical.

As you would expect, the Scotsman is the fiery crazy guy and the Englishman the voice of moderation of reason.

Although gc seems to be taking more after the Englishman so he must be one of those Anglicized 'West Brits'.

I will write a more proper reply later, got work soon until 11...

If you prefer, I can be the irrate Welshmen who decries you for taking my cousens' land, and decries your Anglicised MP's for voting for educational reforms that nearly destroyed my people's language and has completely deprived me of access to my heritage.

While we're talking about Westminster, I have to say I don't agree with Gaelic about Ireland being a "crypto-colony", which is a great term, I think the pathetic truth is that Ireland was just too far away from the Home Counties for the MP's to understand/care and Ire returned too few MP's to make their voice heard in the Commons and apparently all Ire's Lords and Magnates were preocupied with their English holdings.

Which is worse than deliberate of "benign" neglect as far as I'm concerned.

It's a miracle how much of the UK has held together for so long, given how badly the core deals with the provinces, be they West or North or even South-West.

[Greyblades]

If you prefer, I can be the irrate Welshmen who decries you for taking my cousens' land, and decries your Anglicised MP's for voting for educational reforms that nearly destroyed my people's language and has completely deprived me of access to my heritage.

Wait,whats this about nearly destroing your language? Wikipedia doesnt mention it.

[gaelic cowboy]

While we're talking about Westminster, I have to say I don't agree with Gaelic about Ireland being a "crypto-colony", which is a great term, I think the pathetic truth is that Ireland was just too far away from the Home Counties for the MP's to understand/care and Ire returned too few MP's to make their voice heard in the Commons and apparently all Ire's Lords and Magnates were preocupied with their English holdings.

Which is worse than deliberate of "benign" neglect as far as I'm concerned.

It's a miracle how much of the UK has held together for so long, given how badly the core deals with the provinces, be they West or North or even South-West.

I was thinking in terms that while the Union was sold in terms of healing division, it was only sold as such to the Anglo Irish aristocracy. The Irish not having any security of tenure or land did not have voting rights, as a result there concerns could be ignored in parliment.

It's provable fact the number of MPs from Ireland was far smaller than it should have been due to economic insecurity of the Irish.

It was not till much later when London reformed land ownership that things got better but it was far too late by then.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wait,whats this about nearly destroing your language? Wikipedia doesnt mention it.

Typical Sais, can't even read something written in English.

"Welsh Language Act" it gets a whole section in the article and a seperate page.

I was thinking in terms that while the Union was sold in terms of healing division, it was only sold as such to the Anglo Irish aristocracy. The Irish not having any security of tenure or land did not have voting rights, as a result there concerns could be ignored in parliment.

It's provable fact the number of MPs from Ireland was far smaller than it should have been due to economic insecurity of the Irish.

It was not till much later when London reformed land ownership that things got better but it was far too late by then.

No argument here.

The same problems were evident everywhere else, but Ireland was just that bit further away, geographically and culturally, and then you had the famine and that was the end of it.

Still, at least we (mostly) get on these days.

[Greyblades]

Typical Sais, can't even read something written in English.

"Welsh Language Act" it gets a whole section in the article and a seperate page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_Act_1967
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_Act_1993
Both acts give rights to the welsh languages, not take them away, the closest thing I could find that corroborates your story is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_in...Acts_1535-1542
And that only forces the use of english in courts and public administration, it doesnt so much as frown on someone being able to speak welsh. Considering the size of your claims it is unlikely it has just been missed by wikipedia. Please, find something that cooberates your claims. Also stop being insulting, Cymry, I have done nothing to you.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_Act_1967
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_Act_1993
Both acts give rights to the welsh languages, not take them away, the closest thing I could find that corroborates your story is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_in...Acts_1535-1542
And that only forces the use of english in courts and public administration, it doesnt so much as frown on someone being able to speak welsh. Considering the size of your claims it is unlikely it has just been missed by wikipedia, find something that cooberates your claims or stop making them. Also stop being insulting, Cymry, I have done nothing to you.

The Welsh Not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not

Beyond that, you must be daft if you think banning Welsh as a language in the Courts is not significant, and dafter to miss the significance of passing a law to establish a Welsh Language Board.

You really need to educate yourself about the history and culture of these Islands, because right now you are emblemic of every reason that we, the English, are internationally loathed.

[Greyblades]

"Welsh Not".
Not the "welsh language law", "Welsh not".

In the later decades of the 19th century, education was compulsory but the Welsh "not" was used only in a minority of schools

Are you serious?
A couple of teachers beat some kids over speaking welsh on thier own volition, you are complaining that welsh culture was nearly destroyed and are condeming the English from that? It says nothing about the english governments actions towards or against Wales and its not even enough to condemn the entire education system. And you are calling me "emblematic of every reason that we, the English, are internationally loathed" over not knowing about that?
I dont get what your problem is.
I could have called you a liar from the off, I didn't believe you and I could have dismissed you, but no, I had to treat you like an adult, ask your sources, ask you to explain your point. I wanted to know what you were talking about and I was even open to being convinced you were right.

And you give me this? A weak source that proves nothing and an insult?

I'm fed up, I've offered you every little courtesy and you keep on unfairly treating me like I'm a bigoted little prat.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm fed up, I've offered you every little courtesy and you keep on unfairly treating me like I'm a bigoted little prat.

You get into these spats because you lack perspective, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treache...the_Blue_Books

It's all there for you to read. I suggest that in conjunction with the Laws in Wales Acts you consider the introduction of an English Prayer Book during the Reformation which included services and scripture in English, which required Angliphone clergy who preached in English. previously the Liturgy and scripture were Latin and the sermon in Welsh. The same prayer book was violently resisted in Cornwall, and the period after it's introduction marks the precipitation of rapid decline in Cornish.

As to the Law, let me spell it out for you. Once those laws were passed it became illegal for Welshmen to argue Civil Cases in Welsh, and the whole structure of Civil Law became English, completely changing process and precident. That disenfranchised the people of Wales, unless they learned English, conducted business in English, wrote Wills, contracts and Charters in English. If you wanted to sell your house, the papers would need to be in English, not Welsh.

[Greyblades]

You get into these spats because you lack perspective, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treache...the_Blue_Books

:sigh:
I'm getting a sinking feeling. Lets ignore the parts about me if only because I fear they may be true and look at the bit I am supposed to be arguing about.
You said "If you prefer, I can be the irrate Welshmen who decries your Anglicised MP's for voting for educational reforms that nearly destroyed my people's language and has completely deprived me of access to my heritage."
Well, I haven't been convinced that the reforms came close to exterminating the welsh language seeing as there's over 400,000 speakers running around, which is pretty good compared to the lists, and there's nothing I can find that says it dipped in numbers sigificant to say we almost destroyed it, just concerns due to a rate of decline and a scare in the early 20th century.

[Greyblades]

And I am wrong, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Welsh_language

20th century

By the 20th century, the numbers of Welsh speakers were shrinking at a rate which suggested that the language would be extinct within a few generations.

According to the 1911 census, out of a population of just under 2.5 million, 43.5% of the total population of Wales spoke Welsh as a primary language.[4] This was a decrease from the 1891 census with 54.4% speaking Welsh out of a population of 1.5 million.[5][6]

I just up and either missed it or blocked it out because it proved me wrong, I feel really stupid now.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And I am wrong, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Welsh_language
I just up and either missed it or blocked it out because it proved me wrong, I feel really stupid now.

It's a matter of perspective. It's hard to grasp that a group of people who look just like you and dress just like you are actually very different.

Consider this though, Welsh is the native language of Wales, but today there are around 600,000 speakers out of a total population of about 3 million, or 20% of the population, thereabouts - in a century the proportion of Welsh speakers in Wales more than halved even as the population doubled. That's quite someting, and quite difficult to credit in a modern Western Country but it makes more sense if you go back to those Laws in Wales Acts and realise that Wales's wasn't a legal country, just an region of "England" where people spoke Welsh until 1974.