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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    So basically you want to rip it apart and then say that it is not quite as evil as it could be. Wow, I can definitely see why you would categorize your views as neutral. I would give you suggestions if I thought that you were even a bit open-minded or fair, but honestly I think that would be like throwing pearls before swine.
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    So basically you want to rip it apart and then say that it is not quite as evil as it could be. Wow, I can definitely see why you would categorize your views as neutral. I would give you suggestions if I thought that you were even a bit open-minded or fair, but honestly I think that would be like throwing pearls before swine.
    Funny, because I was thinking exactly the same thing about you.

    I don't suppose you've ever seen a manuscript of the Bible, in any language, have you?
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    As has been said one of the first things to point out would be that the Bible is a collection of books with many different authors, since many people do not realise this.

    I would try to explain how the Bible came to be commonly accepted (more or less) in the form that it is today, and obviously Judaism will be just as important as Christianity in that respect. Go into how the unification of Israel/Judah led to the old scrolls being rediscovered, then how they were compiled in captivity in Babylon etc.The Bible is about 80% Old Testament after all, getting across that perspective is pretty important since a lot of people don't appreciate that.

    And of course for the New Testament you would go into Athanasius etc.

    I would also try to explain to the audience how the Old and New Testaments relate to each other. Most importantly would be the idea for Christians that the Old Testament is generally understood in light of the New Testament. As opposed to being made obsolete or being outright contradictory (in their perspective).
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr View Post
    I would try to explain how the Bible came to be commonly accepted (more or less) in the form that it is today, and obviously Judaism will be just as important as Christianity in that respect. Go into how the unification of Israel/Judah led to the old scrolls being rediscovered, then how they were compiled in captivity in Babylon etc.The Bible is about 80% Old Testament after all, getting across that perspective is pretty important since a lot of people don't appreciate that.
    I would not go into this - the argument is vexed, obscured and the simple fact that we do not agree demonstrates it is probably not a good topic for general discussion. There is no evidence for the "rediscovery" of "old scrolls", nor for their having been lost.What is known is that the Hebrew books was compiled around perhaps 600 BC - then continuously added to.
    And of course for the New Testament you would go into Athanasius etc.
    Athanasius is not so interesting a character as Augustine, not as complex or controversial.
    I would also try to explain to the audience how the Old and New Testaments relate to each other. Most importantly would be the idea for Christians that the Old Testament is generally understood in light of the New Testament. As opposed to being made obsolete or being outright contradictory (in their perspective).
    This is certainly worth mentioning, but one must always be careful when discussing the Old Testemant as one's audience may include Jews. By which I mean, they will have a different perspective and a different Canon in a different, and older, language.
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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Athanasius is not so interesting a character as Augustine, not as complex or controversial.
    I don't think so. The emperors tried to kill him, banished him five times and sent a large amount of soldiers to hunt him down in the desert. He was to name the list of NT books we have today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    and moral advice from an age where slavery was common practice.
    So everything Plato, Socrates and Aristotle said, on morals or otherwise, is automatically null and void because of the time they lived in or because they supported slavery?
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 05-22-2012 at 07:20.
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    So everything Plato, Socrates and Aristotle said, on morals or otherwise, is automatically null and void because of the time they lived in or because they supported slavery?
    It puts everything they said under great scrutiny and suspect.

    Personally, I am more offended by Aristotle's Physics than anything else.


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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    It puts everything they said under great scrutiny and suspect.
    Well, that's just childish.
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 05-22-2012 at 10:11.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    , but honestly I think that would be like throwing pearls before swine.

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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    The last refuege of the man who has lost the arguement
    Hmm, if that's true, Vuk is probably the first person I've seen lose an argument before he even got his first reply.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-14-2012 at 19:57.
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    One of the Bible myths I am addressing is the Nicean council. And therefore Athanasius will be mentioned (his influence in the making of the canon). I just have to be disciplined enough to not address the whole Nicean controversy (Arius vs.Athanasius vs. orthodox doctrine on the Godhead). I could easily spend half the time discussing Trinitarianism.

    Thank you for the link PVC.. I might use it.

    I might not have the time to prepare anything on the actual literature ajax, but I will definitely look into it.

    Considering that we don't really have a Jewish community in Bergen, the likelyhood of having a person with Judean religious views could be 1 to entire audience. But yes I agree. It is the Bible I am dealing with, not the Tanakh and it should be understood under the Christian umbrella.

    I will however be very honest in my approach on extra-canonical or similar stories to the bible. Some lecturers would use texts predating the Bible texts which have very similar content as evidence for fraud and simple copying.
    I would suggest that if the Christian God is is the creator, then his gospel would have been taught from the beginning and hence the stories would be expected to be similar. They would all look to the Christian God for salvation, from Adam to Abraham to Jacob to Moses and to the Christian era. Surely the prophets of old would have been taught about the Saviour and the 12 that followed him. Surely there would be communities like Enoch's Zion who were blueprinted by others. The righteous Enoch who the wicked feared, because he could crush an army with his voice. You would expect remnants of the original religion in the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Sumeria etc.
    In just over 2000 years the Christian message and religion has been transformed into 35 000 variants. How long did it take after Christ's death before you found deviations? The clues can be found in the Bible itself.
    The Lord had to revitalize the religion with Enoch after Adam, with Noah, with Abraham - Isaac - Jacob, with Moses and with Christ. Those who adhered to it, corrupted it within generations.
    You can even look to the Norse religion. A God who hung himself on a three and had a spear pierce his side. Familiar? copy? who copied who?
    Last edited by Sigurd; 05-14-2012 at 23:25.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    I think that with Nicea it suffices to say this: that the Council was not directly concerned with which books could be considered canonical, but that they agreed doctrines which would later influence which books were accepted or rejected. However, it is necessary that the Church Fathers at Nicea had certain books in mind during their deliberations.

    The first part of that is snappier, sorry.

    On non-Canonical books: The "Canon" is actually composed of those books which are considered to have reliable authorial attributions, but we must not surpose that because of this all "non-Canonical" books were considered to be wholly without authority.

    Now, I shall just quote myself:

    The Gospel of Nicodemus is an expanded apocryphal account of Christ’s trial before Pilate and what became known as the Descensus Christi ad Inferos or “Christ’s Descent into Hell”, on Easter Saturday when he storms hell to rescue the Patriarchs and Prophets and takes them up to Heaven.

    The Gospel was one of most popular pieces of New Testament Apocrypha in medieval Europe, as demonstrated by its translation into every major vernacular and the variety ways it was adapted or borrowed from for popular consumption. The Gospel’s subject matter and its attribution to the Pharisee Nichodemus of John’s Gospel go a long way to explaining its popularity.

    From "Unremarked Heterodoxy in the Gospel of Nicodemus", (unpublished) delivered at the University of Exeter, 1st May 2012, by Philip John Wallinder BA MA.


    Oh, yes, the copyright is held by the university.

    It is also worth noting that while Enoch is not part of the Jewish canon he is quoted repeatedly in the New Testement.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 05-15-2012 at 00:03.
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    One of the Bible myths I am addressing is the Nicean council. And therefore Athanasius will be mentioned (his influence in the making of the canon). I just have to be disciplined enough to not address the whole Nicean controversy (Arius vs.Athanasius vs. orthodox doctrine on the Godhead). I could easily spend half the time discussing Trinitarianism.

    Thank you for the link PVC.. I might use it.

    I might not have the time to prepare anything on the actual literature ajax, but I will definitely look into it.

    Considering that we don't really have a Jewish community in Bergen, the likelyhood of having a person with Judean religious views could be 1 to entire audience. But yes I agree. It is the Bible I am dealing with, not the Tanakh and it should be understood under the Christian umbrella.

    I will however be very honest in my approach on extra-canonical or similar stories to the bible. Some lecturers would use texts predating the Bible texts which have very similar content as evidence for fraud and simple copying.
    I would suggest that if the Christian God is is the creator, then his gospel would have been taught from the beginning and hence the stories would be expected to be similar. They would all look to the Christian God for salvation, from Adam to Abraham to Jacob to Moses and to the Christian era. Surely the prophets of old would have been taught about the Saviour and the 12 that followed him. Surely there would be communities like Enoch's Zion who were blueprinted by others. The righteous Enoch who the wicked feared, because he could crush an army with his voice. You would expect remnants of the original religion in the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Sumeria etc.
    In just over 2000 years the Christian message and religion has been transformed into 35 000 variants. How long did it take after Christ's death before you found deviations? The clues can be found in the Bible itself.
    The Lord had to revitalize the religion with Enoch after Adam, with Noah, with Abraham - Isaac - Jacob, with Moses and with Christ. Those who adhered to it, corrupted it within generations.
    You can even look to the Norse religion. A God who hung himself on a three and had a spear pierce his side. Familiar? copy? who copied who?
    I once read a course on "the world religion". It is quite interesting how many shared traces can be found, that most likely predates any of the religions we have today.

    Kind of obvious, as a species we date back far longer than written history, and religion wasn't a new invention when we started to write. So one might have copied the other, or, the original story dates way way way further back in time.

    Again, obvious. As obvious as religious celebrations (from whatever religion) "coincidentally" match astrological patterns.

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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    If you have to search for good things to say, maybe there just aren't that many. More kids should know the absurdity of religion before they are indoctrinated, although by 18-20, you would more than likely be trying to break that indoctrination.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    If you have to search for good things to say, maybe there just aren't that many. More kids should know the absurdity of religion before they are indoctrinated, although by 18-20, you would more than likely be trying to break that indoctrination.
    Which is one of the many reasons why my daughter is not being raised christian like I was. I will not have her bound by the same petty fears drilled into her mind throughout her youth like were me. One doesn't need religion at all to raise a child to be a moral, good person. My wife and I don't believe that crap at all any more to begin with.

    @ Siggy - One of the more interesting things I read some time ago was that the earliest versions of "organized" christianity as preached by Saint Paul of Tarsus were supposedly wildly different than what Hayzeus actually taught, AND what the surviving disciples interpreted and believed to be correct. In short, the disciples wanted christianity to be essentially a slightly different flavor of judaism with most all jewish requirements, rituals, observations, and ecclesiastical laws intact. I don't remember all the specifics, but one of the bigger sticking points was circumcision being a requirement. Most adult men tended to shy away from this, so Paul removed it from his "official" version of doctrine in order to make it more attractive. I'll try to find out where I read that. It might have been the big catholic encyclopedia online.

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    If you have to search for good things to say, maybe there just aren't that many. More kids should know the absurdity of religion before they are indoctrinated, although by 18-20, you would more than likely be trying to break that indoctrination.
    What is with the language of "indoctrination" etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    @ Siggy - One of the more interesting things I read some time ago was that the earliest versions of "organized" christianity as preached by Saint Paul of Tarsus were supposedly wildly different than what Hayzeus actually taught, AND what the surviving disciples interpreted and believed to be correct. In short, the disciples wanted christianity to be essentially a slightly different flavor of judaism with most all jewish requirements, rituals, observations, and ecclesiastical laws intact. I don't remember all the specifics, but one of the bigger sticking points was circumcision being a requirement. Most adult men tended to shy away from this, so Paul removed it from his "official" version of doctrine in order to make it more attractive. I'll try to find out where I read that. It might have been the big catholic encyclopedia online.
    The issue with the "Judaizers" and the conflict it caused within the church is well documented in the New Testament itself.
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 05-15-2012 at 02:35.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    It's like a Neo-Nazi giving a lesson on the Talmud. Who asked a guy who hates the bible to give a lecture on it? The best lecturers love what they are lecturing about, passionately. Why don't you just analyze it like any textual mythology? Your speech is bound to be an attack, but would you attack the Iliad and the Odyssey? The Kojiki? Why wouldn't you treat them like beautiful and time honored texts. Your perspective seethes of vitriol and is odd, seeing as the books is merely of traditional/historical value.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 05-15-2012 at 02:19.
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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have said yes to give a lecture about Religion: The Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    It's like a Neo-Nazi giving a lesson on the Talmud. Who asked a guy who hates the bible to give a lecture on it? The best lecturers love what they are lecturing about, passionately.
    No, the best lecturers have a vivid interest of what they are lecturing about.

    People who LOVE the stuff they talk about tend to be less open to other peoples opinion.

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