The Castration of Boxing

[Whacker]

People throughout history have punched each other in the face, and done it for sport. The sport of 'boxing' has evolved over the years, and at one time barely resembled what it has degraded to today.
Shatter your bare hand? Really? Is that why the Romans would use stiff leather thongs to fasten steel or lead plates over their knuckles?
I dare say that was a lot less forgiven (esp when thrown to an enemies skull), and still, they did not 'shatter' their hands.

Seriously Vuk, come on.

He didn't use the 100% exact correct phrasing, but anyone who knows anything about fighting will know what he's talking about. Punching someone along most of their skull will most likely break bones in your hand, possibly very badly as in compound fractures, hence STFS saying "shatter".

Also, about Cent's point of gloves there to protect the boxer's hands. Was your response sarcasm, because that's how I read it... ? If so, then seriously bro? Ever heard of a boxers fracture? That's just one of the more combat injuries. Why do you think all major contact sport fighters wrap the crap out of their hands and then put on gloves beforehand? It's not just western boxing, look at muay thai, kickboxing, MMA in general, pankration, or any other combat sport. When we put on gloves to fight, it's to protect our own hands, not you or your face.

[Vuk]

Seriously Vuk, come on.

He didn't use the 100% exact correct phrasing, but anyone who knows anything about fighting will know what he's talking about. Punching someone along most of their skull will most likely break bones in your hand, possibly very badly as in compound fractures, hence STFS saying "shatter".

Also, about Cent's point of gloves there to protect the boxer's hands. Was your response sarcasm, because that's how I read it... ? If so, then seriously bro? Ever heard of a boxers fracture? That's just one of the more combat injuries. Why do you think all major contact sport fighters wrap the crap out of their hands and then put on gloves beforehand? It's not just western boxing, look at muay thai, kickboxing, MMA in general, pankration, or any other combat sport. When we put on gloves to fight, it's to protect our own hands, not you or your face.

I know that you can break your hand by punching someone's skull, but you are not supposed to be punching crown of the skull. If you condition your hands well, you will have no problem punching someone in the chin or nose hard enough to disorient them and possibly knock them out. Of course you punch differently when you don't wear gloves. You don't punch as hard, but you also don't need to.
Also, yeah, gloves protect your hand, but they also protect your opponent.

I'll tell you what Wacker, you should try something that my bros experimented with. Find a sparring partner, and one of you use 16 oz boxing gloves, and the other use 4 oz. UFC gloves. See who wins, then switch.
Then, one of you use just hand wraps, and the other use 4.oz UFC gloves. See who wins.
When my bros did this, the person with 'less protection' won every time. They didn't need to punch nearly as hard to do as much and more damage, so their punches were quicker and more abbreviated, and still had more of an impact.

I think that if you do that you will come away feeling as I do, that boxing without the 'protection' of gloves is far more effective for you.

[Strike For The South]

I'll tell you what Wacker, you should try something that my bros experimented with. Find a sparring partner, and one of you use 16 oz boxing gloves, and the other use 4 oz. UFC gloves. See who wins, then switch.
Then, one of you use just hand wraps, and the other use 4.oz UFC gloves. See who wins.
When my bros did this, the person with 'less protection' won every time. They didn't need to punch nearly as hard to do as much and more damage, so their punches were quicker and more abbreviated, and still had more of an impact.

The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.

You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.

[Vuk]

The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.

You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.

16 oz. Boxing gloves have a lot more padding on the knuckles and dissipate a lot more of the force than 4 oz. MMA gloves.
Let me explain to you the mechanics behind damaging someone with a punch, as you obviously have no idea.
Depending on where you punch someone, you need different amounts of energy to damage them significantly. You goal is to transfer as much KE as possible into the smallest place possible over the shortest time possible.
The smaller the POC (Point of Contact), the more locational damage you will do. This of course goes both ways, as the smaller a part of your body you hit with, the great a chance you have of damaging it if striking a hard surface.
The overall amount of energy you transfer into your opponent is almost insignificant. What really matters is energy over time. You can do a lot more damage with much less energy transfered over a far shorter time than you can more energy over a longer time.
With bare knuckles and a fast punch, you have a very quick transfer of a lot of energy. With gloves, your POC is a lot larger, allowing you to strike with increased KE at hard targets, but because of the padding, this energy is transfered over a longer period of time (thus lessening its affect on your opponent). Also, a large POC means that you do less locational damage as well as less damage from a fluid shock wave. The more padding, the larger the POC, and the more time it takes to full transfer energy.

You think I am lying? Try it out yourself. Give a friend a pair of each gloves and have him punch you in the gut. Tell me which does more damage. Then have him do it bareknuckle, and tell me which was the worst.

[Strike For The South]

You seem to be assuming there are no bones in the hand. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HAND IF YOU TRY TO BOX WITHOUT GLOVES.

[Vuk]

You seem to be assuming there are no bones in the hand. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HAND IF YOU TRY TO BOX WITHOUT GLOVES.

Then I guess I have no bones in my hand strike, because I have punched people when wearing no gloves, and I did not break my hand. I've also been punched in the face by people who didn't break their hands, and I have seen it happen to other people.
A person has a flexible neck, and it absorbs a lot of the force of a punch. Also, when punched in the face, it is a person's natural reaction to follow the punch backward most times.
Strike, not only my own experience and observations, but also history are against you. You are falling into the big lie of modern sports fighting that is meant to cater to the lowest possible denominator. And people currently involved in modern sports fighting believe the lie religiously. They think they are much smarter and physically superior to their predecessors, and that 'modern sports medicine' is the ultimate source of truth. Modern sports fighting is designed to make the most money possible, with the least risk and work possible, while attracting as many people as possible.

[Vuk]

UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.

Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.

Yeah, it happens, but that is fighting. Shite happens. You can hurt yourself grappling, kicking, kneeing, etc. The chance of you breaking your hand is not very high, but the chance of breaking someone's face is. Of course if modern people conditioned for striking hard surfaces more, it would happen a lot less.

[Whacker]

Tell us about that time you outrolled a bjj purple belt

[Strike For The South]

You're not only a liar, you're also an idiot.

Life must be taxing

[Vuk]

The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.

You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.

UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.

Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.

Were just a few of the posts. Everyone on the thread was either arguing that less padding=less damage or were agreeing with them.

[ajaxfetish]

The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.

You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.

UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.

Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.

Were just a few of the posts. Everyone on the thread was either arguing that less padding=less damage or were agreeing with them.

Let's see.

• StfS says that the padding in UFC gloves is placed to protect the striker's hands rather than to protect the strikee's head, and that strikes with gloves on are harder than with gloves off. No mention of the weight of the gloves having any effect on the force of the punch, just presence vs. absence.
• GC says that UFC fighters (with lighter gloves) break their hands more often than boxers, so heavier gloves provide more hand protection, and mentions talk of the UFC switching to heavier gloves, presumably to provide more protection. No mention of harder hits with more padding.

Can you find any actual instances of people in the thread claiming heavier gloves allow harder hits, or only more instances of people saying heavier gloves provide more protection?

Ajax

[rvg]

Let's just replace boxing with pankration. While we're at it, let's relax the rules a bit (we can call it Extreme Pankration) and allow biting and eye gouging. That should be fun.

[Whacker]

Let's just replace boxing with pankration. While we're at it, let's relax the rules a bit (we can call it Extreme Pankration) and allow biting and eye gouging. That should be fun.

Go rewatch the first few UFCs.

[Vuk]

Let's see.

• StfS says that the padding in UFC gloves is placed to protect the striker's hands rather than to protect the strikee's head, and that strikes with gloves on are harder than with gloves off. No mention of the weight of the gloves having any effect on the force of the punch, just presence vs. absence.
• GC says that UFC fighters (with lighter gloves) break their hands more often than boxers, so heavier gloves provide more hand protection, and mentions talk of the UFC switching to heavier gloves, presumably to provide more protection. No mention of harder hits with more padding.

Can you find any actual instances of people in the thread claiming heavier gloves allow harder hits, or only more instances of people saying heavier gloves provide more protection?

Ajax

SFTS was responding to my post where I said that a punch with a UFC glove had a greater effect on someone than a punch with an 18oz boxing glove. Strike's post was disputing that and calling me a liar. His post was obviously, when context is considered, not saying that a punch with a boxing glove is more powerful than a bare-fisted strike, but is more powerful than one with a UFC glove. (and in his limited mind, more power=more effect)

Also, what as the point of GC's post if not to say that heavier gloves are more effective because even the UFC is thinking of switching to them?
If you re-read my first post, I said that the sport of boxing should start using hand wraps and light protection (such as a layer of leather) instead of heavy gloves, so that boxing becomes more similar to bareknuckle boxing. My prescription was not to use the naked hand, but to use lighter protection to make it more similar to the naked hand. I only prescribed the naked hand for people training boxing for self-defense. The whole discussion about the effectiveness of the naked hand came about because I said that someone from the 1800s who trained with the naked fist would be able to defeat a modern boxer in a real fight.

At least half of the argument of this thread was over the advantages or disadvantages of heavy or lighter gloves, and everyone came down against me in the argument. Maybe you should reread the thread.

Let's just replace boxing with pankration. While we're at it, let's relax the rules a bit (we can call it Extreme Pankration) and allow biting and eye gouging. That should be fun.

Hey, I got nothing against pankration, but it is not boxing. I am talking about the sport of boxing.