I'm not talking about defending your honour. That is stupid. I'm talking about defending your life and all of the cool stuff that you have.
I'm not talking about defending your honour. That is stupid. I'm talking about defending your life and all of the cool stuff that you have.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I'd be very interested to see your sources for the murder rate in the Middle Ages (and is it supposed to have been constant across those ~1000 years and many regions?). I'd not have thought we had accurate enough population data to establish it with any degree of confidence.
Ajax
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"I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
"I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey
Actually, we do. Murders are well documented in most european states. This is because of several things, like the belongings of a murderer going to the king. We also have good census data, ranging from a proper census to estimates based on the number of farms(as they pay tax, they're always well documented).
A Harvard professor, whose name I cannot remember atm, recently published a book concluding that the amount of violence in the world has dropped significantly since the middle ages.
Edit: Steven Pinker is is name. Haven't read the book yet though.
Last edited by HoreTore; 07-25-2012 at 14:31.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
But does it account for what was-was not considered violent or a crime vs what is today?
In the frontier US, "horse thiefs" were hung in the field on nothing more than hearsay and circumstantial evidence, and the case was closed. I have a hard time accepting crime statistics from periods with completely different social values and law enforcement techniques, even as late as the 1970s (in the US)
I don't doubt crime has gone down since the middle ages, particulalry because a lot of crime probably never got reported
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
That is indeed stupid. And humanity stopped being stupid when? A simple example. Gettting drunk when going out. Guns+drunks= lots of stupidity. Guns at door+drunk=better, but still a lot of stupidity. Guns at home+drunk = much less stupidity, but now they will get mugged, since late night drunks are one of those groups that get mugged a lot.
Metastudies. That's why there's a so large range. Page 95 (the pdf starts at 82) and forward got some graphs. I haven't gone through all of it. Major distortion factors are survival ratio due to medicine and (mostly) female suecide by killing their own child. Due to the immence social stigma on suecide (punished way harder than murder) and the following family shame, this made sense from suecide perspective.
That's why the focus is on murder rates. It's hard to forget about the corpses. Now there's a big correlation between murder and assult, but I haven't red enough on that matter.
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED
And what about suicides, self defense and disappearences or bodies not found? Just playing devils advocate here.
Again, to make a throw back to my own local history:
With the advent of Interstates and more affordable cars, serial killers in the US increased dramatically in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, because killers could travel between different municipalities and commit multiple murders, knowing that the different counties and cities were likely not sharing information. Some of them were brazen and didn't even try to hide what they were doing, because they could be on an interstate and in another jurisidiction in 10 minutes. So in the 50s, 60s and 70s there was also a rash of "runaways" and we got the whole "kids running off to join cults" thing, when in reality, this was young people hitch hiking, getting picked up and raped and murdered, and their bodies never found. They were often not confirmed dead until a killer spills his guts on his death bed, and by that time the runaways parents were dead or senile, going to the grave thinking their kid ran off.
The above situation was not helped by the lack of national/state identification for citizens and newborns. Social Security numbers were not mandatory until the 80s as I recall. I didnt have one until I was 14. Hell, we still hear from time to time about someone who has had their kid locked in a basement for a decade and nobody ever knew there was a kid
I think it is safe to assume that in the middle ages there were a hell of a lot more murders than accounter for, and there probably a lot of suicides/accidents that were considered murders.
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
@ HoreTore & Ironside: Thank you
Ajax
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"I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
"I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey
Exactly. But the other reason it worked is that Australia had no gun industry of its own at the time, and hence, no powerful NRA-like lobby movement that would use massive financial resources to depose any politicians that would try to implement gun control and reduce the profit margins of its contributing members. PJ, you say often that we shouldn't let a few crazies dictate citizens' gun rights, but right now the US is letting the NRA dictate its gun policy. And they NRA doesn't give a crap about rights, or victims, or principles, it cares only about profit for gun manufacturers.
"What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"
- TSM
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Most murders were of the armed drunk at the tavern type. But I don't think disappearences or bodies not found were that common actually (and possibly counted as murder after a while during some circumstances). Moving a body was much harder in those times. Getting it outside city borders would smack you with a dead human tax (or the tax collectors would check out you wagon and find the body) and simply disappearing from a large house or a village was harder, so both moving the body or saying that someone ran away would be harder. Even with more wilderness, getting deep into it wouldn't be common. And with much less forensics it's less initiative to hide the body.
Self defense cases is probably counted into it (it's still a dead body case and goes up with arnament+crimes). Suecide would probably be "suecide by street brawl". God knows about your suecide, so you still go to hell buddy, even if it's counted as an accident. Accidents as murder or opposite would probably happen yeah.
It's still a metastudy, aka a study of studies. Even if the data isn't correct, it isn't random, so with a large enough studies, you can still get data and draw conclusions. That method is a big reason why you get longer weather prognoses nowadays. Their accuracy has gone up good enough.
Edit:
Goofball, I think you can summarize the US as having an unusually weak social contract for a western democracy, with a bit of backward searching for it's roots. Thus you get tax is theft, protection from both criminals and the state is your buissness, the founding fathers are demigods, your values needs to be heard (or they will die) and those groups who disconnects with the rest of the country.
Last edited by Ironside; 07-25-2012 at 18:17.
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED
It's absolutely true. Polls show that people in the U.S. are split fairly evenly on gun control, as they are on many other issues. The difference is that on other issues, such as abortion, for example, there is no huge lobby group on one side of the issue that makes politicians shy away from taking a contrary position for fear of being crushed in the next election by a massive spending campaign that they can't fight back against. Why do you think that in the aftermath of this tragedy Obama (who was always pro gun control) and Romney (who once said "I don't line up with the NRA") have both been very quick to say that they will not push for further gun control laws? Only the most fervent of gun control supporters in congress have come forward proposing that more measures are needed, with the rest of the legislative body choosing to simply whistle past the graveyard for fear of awakening the wrath of the NRA. If you think the NRA doesn't dictate gun control policy in the U.S., you're living in a dream world.
"What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"
- TSM
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"I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
"I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey
As I haven't read it, I can't really comment on that...
I have followed the debate concerning the book though. I haven't seen the point above being made in the debate, and so the study probably has a counter for it.
Or, MRD might just be smarter than every conservative commentator.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
If there is one thing I know, its my serial killers and psychopaths. The advent of DNA analysis really put a crimp in my career plans
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
If I want a gun I can join a gun club or own a farm or even hunt foxes in national parks, wild goat culls are still done by rifle.
Mind you in NZ I've seen boar hunters use knives and deer hunters use nets and jump out of helicopters to get live deer. School kids used to shoot & trap possums and skin the pelts.
Freedom is made up of a lot of parts. On most freedom indexes Australia ranks highly.
Whilst I like the idea of defending ones home. I also like the idea of using a fire brigade (free) to fight a house fire, police to fight criminals etc.
I'm happy with universal health care, 'free-ish' Uni education, and a low unemployment rate ~5%. These all contribute to my freedom too.
That is not true at all. The Clinton years are ample proof that the NRA and the gun manufacturers, while aligned in most cases, are wholly separate entities. Many of the most disputed weapon types have not traditionally been big sellers at all, but gun owners understand that we can either stand together or watch as our rights are eroded piecemeal. The NRA is powerful in American politics because its member base is composed of millions of Americans who share their goals. There is nothing particularly sinister about that.
That's nice. I can do all that plus shoot my AK clone at reactive targets in my backyard whenever I feel like it, which is highly enjoyable. More seriously, I can legally carry a weapon to defend myself when I deem the situation warrants it, instead of outsourcing my personal safety to police who, even at their best, can only arrive at a crime scene after the crime has taken place.Originally Posted by Pap
Those are rights that you simply do not enjoy.
And before any more dicks are pulled out, I'm not criticizing Australia. Every nation skews differently on gun control. America is actually not as far away from Australia as most would think. Technically, a case could be made for the legal possession of all sorts of heavy weaponry, including tanks, fighter jets, missiles, etc, base on the Constitution. However, there is no movement for such liberties. In fact, the AK clone I mentioned above is neutered. It was once a true assault rifle, but in my legal position it can be nothing more than a semi-automatic rifle - no more menacing than semi-automatic hunting rifles that have been sold for years and a shooting far less powerful round.
In that sense, the US and Australia are not all that different - just at two similarly located points on a sliding scale. I prefer to live in a nation that leans more toward personal freedom, even if it comes with a (yet to be proven) slightly higher statistical chance that I will fall victim to gun-related violence, especially considering the continually declining rates of such violence.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 07-26-2012 at 03:09.
The whole "If I was at that theater with my concealed weapon" talk I am picking up on talk radio is really starting to grate me. People really do think life is a movie, apparently.
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Successful shot? You would have to hit him in the throat, the face or the femoral, through smoke, suffocation, people and general mayhem. Unless you were one of the seventeen paranoid people in the US who carry 5mm class handguns, and then you would still have to get through the smoke, suffocation and the people.
And all of this of course is assuming you hadn't fallen asleep and you didn't have your hands in your dates shirt
and that you were 100% sober
Having a concealed firearm in that theater would do no good to anyone unless they were literally sitting in the front row
I find it incredible how retarded armchair gunslingers are, especially overweight pundits who shoot at paper targets and deer
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
Um, which is why I placed the odds so low.
Why are you getting indignant when I agree with you?
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
I'm not getting indignant. I am agreeing with and laughing with you. Intent is lost with text, if we were sitting on a bear rug in front of a fire you would understand my intent
Also, Stop using big words.
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
PJ is correct about the NRA not waivering on anything gun related. They use scare tactics of the snowball effect. It is a legitimate concern: the gov chips away and ninjas in on rights. A perfect of example of this is the Patriot Act, which now gives us drones flying through cities, and anti terrorism laws being used against meth manufacturers and people publicly protesting.
However I do find it somewhat disturbing that I would have to jump through more hoops to engage in some monetary, commercial and regular every day transactions than I would in order to buy a firearm at a gunshow. It's stupid.
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
Isn't the funny part of that story that the people who are in favour of gun control, i.e. the pinko librauls, were the ones who criticized the Patriot Act the most while the gun-toting home defender neocon repubs were the ones saying it's necessary to keep the browny terrorists at bay?
That would mean the same people who want their guns to defend their liberties, supported the government that infringed on their liberties as soon as there was an excuse to do so. IMO because the militia attitude often (often does not mean always) comes with an unhealthy dose of xenophobia and a lack of critical thinking.
There's aways a line to be drawn between personal liberties and common good etc. If you want more personal liberties, then open the borders and let Mexicans decide for themselves where to live, no nanny state telling them to stay in Mexico, the market will regulate itself anyway.
If the government turns on the own population, you cannot imply restrictions as in Afghanistan as has been mentioned before, and if half the military joins the population anyway, then there is not much need for the population to have guns prior to that.
The example of Libya wasn't bad, they even had heavy machine guns on pickups, but when Gadaffi sent some tanks the jeeps ran away until NATO bombed the tanks. Surely you can fight and win some guerilla war, might also want to consult the FARC about how much fun that can be.
A much better defense against tyranny is an informed populace but pro-personal liberty often don't like the idea that education is universal and paid for by their taxes but maybe that's just them doing their best to make their guerilla wet dream a reality.![]()
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"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Sheer excellence, Husar! You really should post more![]()
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Thinly veiled racism accusations always make for a stronger argument.
Ok, so what can we not do today that we could before because of the PATRIOT ACT? Name something. Go ahead... I'll wait.That would mean the same people who want their guns to defend their liberties, supported the government that infringed on their liberties as soon as there was an excuse to do so. IMO because the militia attitude often (often does not mean always) comes with an unhealthy dose of xenophobia and a lack of critical thinking.
Mind you, I wasn't in favor of everything in the act, but to say it's affected my personal liberty in any meaningful way is untrue.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
It's not that we cannot DO things.
It's that we get spied on wholesale and it is okay, and anti terror laws are used to wiggle those oh so inconvenient laws
Also, IIRC the Patriot Act had pretty strong support amongst the Democrats, and support from Republicans was not 100%
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
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