Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

[Vuk]

So that's half a year you get to wonder if unimmunized hippies and/or rednecks will inadvertently kill your child. Wheeeeeee!

lmao! Lemur, you are a class A nutjob. No offense, but you really are. I wish you could get a little 'unwrapped' from you crazy beliefs so you could step back and see just how crazy you sound.

Ehrm no. You see one of the very nice properties of nearly all STDs is that, well, they are S-TD as opposed to Cough-TD etc. That makes STDs "mostly harmless" by comparison, doubly so since most of them are, again, not lethal whereas a typical property of child's diseases is that yes, in fact, they can be severe enough to kill (particularly babies and todlers). Furthermore apparently unlike wherever you live, the typical environment in which a child contracts a disease would be that small room which it spends a lot of time in together with many other kids in the same "class"; plus again, children at risk of childs disease (age 5-6, age 9, age 12 are specific "milestones" for vaccines) are not generally sexually active enough to get an STD....

This means that you, Vuk, might not be such a big risk factor for the Lemurlings but the good quacks kids are.

Oh, really? And your kids are not gonna kiss anyone at school? Do you know how many STDs (HIV for instance) are transmitted largely by NON-sexual contact? All it takes is a kiss, someone who rubbed their eye to touch a doorhandle, and then for you to rub your eye after touching that doorhandle, someone sneezing and some of the mist touching the rim of the cup you are drinking out of, etc, etc. STDs don't put kids at risk? Tell that to Africa.
Sorry TA, but I would be much more worried about whores (no, I don't mean that in a gender specific way) than I would people who don't get vaccines.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Oh, really? And your kids are not gonna kiss anyone at school? Do you know how many STDs (HIV for instance) are transmitted largely by NON-sexual contact? All it takes is a kiss, someone who rubbed their eye to touch a doorhandle, and then for you to rub your eye after touching that doorhandle, someone sneezing and some of the mist touching the rim of the cup you are drinking out of, etc, etc. STDs don't put kids at risk? Tell that to Africa.
Sorry TA, but I would be much more worried about whores (no, I don't mean that in a gender specific way) than I would people who don't get vaccines.

First of all HIV, in particular, is not transmitted via kissing handshaking, coughing, sneezing or eye rubbing. With the exception of handshaking, those are all typical vectors for transmission of those child's diseases that make them so contagious and precisely why vaccination is of paramount importance to combat them.

Secondly, the easiest way for STDs the spread is through blood contact. In case of HIV, breastfeeding is another vector.

[Sir Moody]

Vuk have you bothered to read any of the links provided?

People who don't vaccinate their kids ARE risking the lives of other kids

No vaccine is 100% proof and we rely on Herd immunity to weed these diseases fully out

Yes STD's are generally harder to spread - the diseases we vaccinate against are generally spread via airborne particles

you cannot get Aids from kissing (see http://www.avert.org/can-you-get-hiv-aids.htm)

frankly YOU are sounding the crazy one and while Lemur sounds "enthused" he is perfectly rational in his beliefs

[Major Robert Dump]

Vuk just defeated his own argument with his own argument. Classic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh really? Because I remember reading that bacteria responds to anti-biotics and mutates to more dangerous forms as a result.

That's if you don't take the whole course some of the bacteria then survives and develops an immunity.

Think of it like this - you have a cave full of terrorists, you could just throw in one white phosphorus grenade and hope it burns them all, or you could throw in three. If you only throw in one you run the risk of one of the terrorists surviving and learning about Willie Peter.

See?

[Vuk]

frankly YOU are sounding the crazy one and while Lemur sounds "enthused" he is perfectly rational in his beliefs

Yes, accusing people who choose not to stick needles all througout themselves of being child-murderers is a perfectly rational thing.

Do you know how many parents don't force their kids to wash their hands before they eat, or cover their mouth when they sneeze, etc, etc? I would be a lot more worried about that than someone who doesn't want their kids to recieve federally-mandated accupuncture treatment.

[Vuk]

That's if you don't take the whole course some of the bacteria then survives and develops an immunity.

Think of it like this - you have a cave full of terrorists, you could just throw in one white phosphorus grenade and hope it burns them all, or you could throw in three. If you only throw in one you run the risk of one of the terrorists surviving and learning about Willie Peter.

See?

I'll put it this way PVC, I know tons of people who get all their shots who get a lot sicker, a lot more often than members of my family who have not. I also know some un-immunized people who get sick a lot, and some immunized people who never get sick. The deciding factor does not seem to be whether or not they get immunized. People who never (or hardly ever) get sick in my experience, whether immunized or not are almost always the people who eat healthily, are active, and get lots of sleep.
I really have not seen any significant difference between the immunized and the unimmunized.

I'll live a relatively healthy lifestyle and be clean, and I will probably end up being much less of a threat to anyone's children than a huge amount of those who are immunized who eat shit food, who aren't clean, etc, etc.

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

[Sir Moody]

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

see no that isn't the case at all - there IS a scientific consensus on Vaccination - there has been one for decades

the Studies which attempted to prove otherwise have all been discredited - go back and read ALL the links we have posted so far and better still WATCH the video CBR posted - its very good

what you are spouting is typical conspiracy spread by groups who are Anti-Vaccination for what ever reason (be it Religion or Paranoid delusions about Government or "Big Pharma") and who ignore decades of Science and statistical evidence

go look up the World Heath Organisations figures on Measles - it was on the brink of eradication in the 90's but now after 10 years of this stupid Anti-Vac FIRST WORLD countries are seeing an upturn in almost epidemic proportions

you may think "Measles huh so what they can get spotty and itchy for a while and be perfectly fine" but Measles is a KILLER among the very young

now I wouldn't call you a "Murderer" for not vaccinating but you ARE endangering those around you - you are basically gambling with the lives of your entire community

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'll put it this way PVC, I know tons of people who get all their shots who get a lot sicker, a lot more often than members of my family who have not. I also know some un-immunized people who get sick a lot, and some immunized people who never get sick. The deciding factor does not seem to be whether or not they get immunized. People who never (or hardly ever) get sick in my experience, whether immunized or not are almost always the people who eat healthily, are active, and get lots of sleep.
I really have not seen any significant difference between the immunized and the unimmunized.

I'll live a relatively healthy lifestyle and be clean, and I will probably end up being much less of a threat to anyone's children than a huge amount of those who are immunized who eat shit food, who aren't clean, etc, etc.

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

The science has been settled for about a century

Vaccines work, Jenna proved it.

Sure, people still get sick, but not with the things they are vaccinated against.

[Montmorency]

The science is not settled on vaccines

You just profoundly insulted the intelligence of everyone following this thread.

I hope you are happy.

[ajaxfetish]

Yes, accusing people who choose not to stick needles all througout themselves of being child-murderers is a perfectly rational thing.

Yes, accusing people who refuse to help eradicate deadly childhood diseases of endangering others' children is a perfectly rational thing.

I'll put it this way PVC, I know tons of people who get all their shots who get a lot sicker, a lot more often than members of my family who have not. I also know some un-immunized people who get sick a lot, and some immunized people who never get sick. The deciding factor does not seem to be whether or not they get immunized. People who never (or hardly ever) get sick in my experience, whether immunized or not are almost always the people who eat healthily, are active, and get lots of sleep.
I really have not seen any significant difference between the immunized and the unimmunized.

The most commonly experienced disease by far is the common cold, for which there is no vaccine. So, of course, both immunized people and non-immunized people are going to get sick in similar numbers. The fortunate thing is that the common cold is relatively harmless. How many immunized people do you know who are getting measles or rubella, or whooping cough? I'm guessing not a lot. As long as people like you are around, though, they'll still be here to infect children who are too young to be immunized, people with allergic reactions to vaccines, people for whom the vaccine doesn't prove effective, and of course folks like you who intentionally avoid immunization. And unfortunately, unlike the cold, these can be pretty deadly, meaning you may be making possible the deaths of people in any of those groups.

I'll live a relatively healthy lifestyle and be clean, and I will probably end up being much less of a threat to anyone's children than a huge amount of those who are immunized who eat shit food, who aren't clean, etc, etc.

Yeah, sloppier people may spread colds around more than you, and give people the sniffles. Somehow I'm not as concerned about that as I am the killer diseases you are a potential vector for.

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

The science is settled. You are waiting for a consensus that has already arrived, so you will presumably remain a danger to others for the rest of your life, for no good reason.

Ajax

[Vuk]

You just profoundly insulted the intelligence of everyone following this thread.

I hope you are happy.

Yes, and on evolution and man-made global warming as well. I know.

[rory_20_uk]

I'll put it this way PVC, I know tons of people who get all their shots who get a lot sicker, a lot more often than members of my family who have not. I also know some un-immunized people who get sick a lot, and some immunized people who never get sick. The deciding factor does not seem to be whether or not they get immunized. People who never (or hardly ever) get sick in my experience, whether immunized or not are almost always the people who eat healthily, are active, and get lots of sleep.
I really have not seen any significant difference between the immunized and the unimmunized.

I'll live a relatively healthy lifestyle and be clean, and I will probably end up being much less of a threat to anyone's children than a huge amount of those who are immunized who eat shit food, who aren't clean, etc, etc.

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

Your views vs over 100 years of research.

Frankly I can't be bothered to write more.

[Montmorency]

Yes, and on evolution and man-made global warming as well. I know.

Are you looking for a low whistle, or something?

[jirisys]

I also know some un-immunized people who get sick a lot, and some immunized people who never get sick. The deciding factor does not seem to be whether or not they get immunized. People who never (or hardly ever) get sick in my experience, whether immunized or not are almost always the people who eat healthily, are active, and get lots of sleep.

Are you actually being serious? No one is saying that immunization stops you from getting any disease. That's asinine.

People get immunized from a particular disease. You don't see many smallpox-immunized people getting smallpox do you now?

Same thing happens with antibiotics, you stop taking them after you don't feel any more symptoms but you haven't finished the dose (or use one of those goddamn antibacterial soap). Now you got stuff like Beta-Lactamase producing e. Coli, who laugh at your puny attempts to treat them with penicillin.

I really have not seen any significant difference between the immunized and the unimmunized.

That's because there shouldn't be. Except one can easily contract Polio and could potentially start an epidemic, and the other most likely won't.

I'll live a relatively healthy lifestyle and be clean, and I will probably end up being much less of a threat to anyone's children than a huge amount of those who are immunized who eat shit food, who aren't clean, etc, etc.

I'm glad you do.

But no, because the common cold is scarcely mortal to children. Yellow fever is. And if you get bitten by a carrying mosquito, you will likely die a horrible death
(or live horrible days in a hospital bed). If you had vaccinated, you would have had around a 70% chance of not getting the virus at all.

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

Yes it is. Ask any scientist, you will not find one that is not condescending to you for even asking about it.

It's a risk, side-effects can be pretty bad, but compromising herd immunity and risking the life of a kid (or an adult, or many kids, or many adults) is much more important than a few days feeling like crap.

Enough years? Enough years? Go and try to get smallpox, I mean it. The only samples of viruses left are kept in laboratories, why? Vaccination. We eradicated a whole disease with vaccination, is that not proof enough? The disease has been around for millenia, and we eradicated it in only 200 years. There has not been any case of smallpox since the 90's. If that is not proof enough, then I don't know what is.

~Jirisys ()

[Ironside]

Yes, and on evolution and man-made global warming as well. I know.

Let me put it this way, the data on vaccinations are comparable to man 200 years ago asking the question: can you breed dogs larger? And then document the breeding until now.

For the greenhouse effect in global warming, it's building a greenhouse and seeing if it's warmer inside the greenhouse.

Are vaccines 100% safe? No, but they are probably the largest life saver in medicine ever (the other possible contestant are antibiotics) and for the "childhood" (doesn't always happen during childhood, although in an unvaccinated population, pretty much everybody will have it before the childhood ends, no matter the degree of personal cleanliness, hence the name. Same are worse to have at older ages) diseases, it's settled and the side effects are nothing compared to the disease.
Vaccine against flu is pretty much the only one where there's a question and it's not if it's better to vaccinate (it is on average), it's if it's worth the bother.

Oh, really? And your kids are not gonna kiss anyone at school? Do you know how many STDs (HIV for instance) are transmitted largely by NON-sexual contact? All it takes is a kiss, someone who rubbed their eye to touch a doorhandle, and then for you to rub your eye after touching that doorhandle, someone sneezing and some of the mist touching the rim of the cup you are drinking out of, etc, etc. STDs don't put kids at risk? Tell that to Africa.
Sorry TA, but I would be much more worried about whores (no, I don't mean that in a gender specific way) than I would people who don't get vaccines.

It's 0. Null. Zero. Nada. Sitch. None.
STV, Sexually transmitted diseases are only named as such when the primary vector of infection (by a large margin) is sexual contact.
What you're saying is comparable to saying that there exist Christians who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ, when it's the defining feature.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, and on evolution and man-made global warming as well. I know.

As a Christian, I find the views on Evolution to be the most absurd.

[jirisys]

As a Christian, I find the views on Evolution to be the most absurd.

Will this tread become a list of things the Orgahs don't believe about scientific consensus?

Because I won't have anything to say off the top of my head. Cause. Y'know. I'm normal.

Well, except string theory. But hey; it's string theory.

~Jirisys ()

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Will this tread become a list of things the Orgahs don't believe about scientific consensus?

Because I won't have anything to say off the top of my head. Cause. Y'know. I'm normal.

Well, except string theory. But hey; it's string theory.

~Jirisys ()

rewind, read the post again.

You're suffering from word blindness, you see "Christian" and "Evolution" in a sentence and you don't read the rest of it.

[jirisys]

rewind, read the post again.

You're suffering from word blindness, you see "Christian" and "Evolution" in a sentence and you don't read the rest of it.

Would you believe me if I claim dyslexia? I guess not.

I do apologize for the mistake though. I have lapses sometimes.

~Jirisys ()

[Vuk]

I never said I objected to all vaccines (there are only some I am suspicious of), my objection was to government mandated injections. (as some on this forum were arguing for)
People should have the right to not be vaccinated if they choose. You may argue that it may hurt others in the long run, but so does people voting for Obama. You cannot mandate people stop though, as they must be free to do what they feel right, even if it is stupid. As long as they are not intentionally or directly killing/robbing/etc, mind your own business. I have not gotten any injections, mainly because I am always broke and have never had the time. There are some (such as the flu vaccine) that you would have to kill me if you wanted to inject it in my body.

[Beskar]

You're suffering from word blindness, you see "Christian" and "Evolution" in a sentence and you don't read the rest of it.

It does lack some context as to which particular views on evolution you find to be to be absurd, though in context, I would assume Vuk's.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Would you believe me if I claim dyslexia? I guess not.

I do apologize for the mistake though. I have lapses sometimes.

~Jirisys ()

Given that I suffer from it too - no, but I don't take it personally either.

It does lack some context as to which particular views on evolution you find to be to be absurd, though in context, I would assume Vuk's.

Do I really have to gratify that with an answer after all these years?

[jirisys]

People should have the right to not be vaccinated if they choose. You may argue that it may hurt others in the long run, but so does people voting for Obama.

Whether Obama is hurting others in the long run is subjective and untestable until after it happens. You can scientifically prove that not undergoing vaccination is actually harmful.

You cannot mandate people stop though, as they must be free to do what they feel right, even if it is stupid. As long as they are not intentionally or directly killing/robbing/etc, mind your own business.

You might think this is the same argument as the "We shouldn't wear helmets on our bikes". But it isn't. It affects other people (herd immunity, for the 10th time someone has told you this).

So according to your logic, manslaughter should not be a crime? Because it's usually not intentional? Even so, these people are intentionally putting the life of other at risk, even more than a simple robbery could do, whether they understand it or not is irrelevant.

Given that I suffer from it too - no, but I don't take it personally either.

I don't have dyslexia (hopefully), I was just scapegoating. Sorry about the misleading statement.

~Jirisys ()

[ajaxfetish]

I never said I objected to all vaccines (there are only some I am suspicious of), my objection was to government mandated injections. (as some on this forum were arguing for)
People should have the right to not be vaccinated if they choose. You may argue that it may hurt others in the long run, but so does people voting for Obama. You cannot mandate people stop though, as they must be free to do what they feel right, even if it is stupid. As long as they are not intentionally or directly killing/robbing/etc, mind your own business. I have not gotten any injections, mainly because I am always broke and have never had the time. There are some (such as the flu vaccine) that you would have to kill me if you wanted to inject it in my body.

And people should be able to choose whether they contribute to funding the U.S. military. Sure, it may hurt others in the long run if there aren't enough defense funds, but some people are pacifists, and they should be free to do what they feel is right, even if it is stupid and hurts everyone else.

Ajax

[Montmorency]

Given that I suffer from it too - no, but I don't take it personally either.

Holy hell, all this time I thought you were doing it to seem clever.

I have an idea for a apocalyptic-bio-thriller or whatever:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

August 2030

Climate change has been logistically, if not politically, congenial to miners, loggers, and shippers. As prospectors conclude a survey of land in deepest Siberia, they make an unexpected contact: Old Believers. The Russian-speakers on the team can hardly understand them, but eventually decide to follow them. Arriving a hundred-acre clearing in the taiga, they note what appears to be a burial procession. The After a few hours of attempted communication with the locals, and having allowed the recluses to feel their synthetic fabrics all over, they record the location and return to their base camp. "The press is gonna love it", one says. "The last uncontacted groups in the world."

Two weeks later, back in the Dniepropetrovsk offices, one of the party comes down with a sudden fever and unpleasant rash. He takes the rest of the week off.

...

December 2030

Smallpox.

The world is in chaos. Medical facilities were overwhelmed by the first waves. Nations executed the initial stages of the respose plan speedily and competently. However...

Religious fundamentalists of all stripes have proclaimed the end-times. Armed groups of them have occupied state health agencies, hospitals, research laboratories and academic institutions around the world; they have killed all the science guys. Military and security forces are in disarray, as the senior citizens of the world are the best-equipped for this crisis. The CDC facility has been razed to the ground.

On Christmas Eve, former Japanese SFG commando Hiro Takayaki has been called out of retirement to lead a hand-picked multinational team to Koltsovo - accompanied by the last living science guy, Douglas Mason - to retrieve the last remaining smallpox sample. On Christmas Day, all contact is lost with the VDV brigade stationed in Koltsovo...


This New Year's, all sing Auld Lang Syne.

[Vuk]

You might think this is the same argument as the "We shouldn't wear helmets on our bikes". But it isn't. It affects other people (herd immunity, for the 10th time someone has told you this).

When you don't wear your helmet, you are much more likely to be injured and put a strain on the health-care system that will affect others. As more people carelessly injure themselves in a bad economy, health insurance companies will become bankrupt, and the government will take over till it goes bankrupt, then China will attack us to make us pay our debts. You see, that will cost many more lives.

Seriously though, even hurting yourself in isolation affects others in ways that go way beyond your own health.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Holy hell, all this time I thought you were doing it to seem clever.

I have an idea for a apocalyptic-bio-thriller or whatever:

Doing what?

Spelling badly?

[Tuuvi]

I'll put it this way PVC, I know tons of people who get all their shots who get a lot sicker, a lot more often than members of my family who have not. I also know some un-immunized people who get sick a lot, and some immunized people who never get sick. The deciding factor does not seem to be whether or not they get immunized. People who never (or hardly ever) get sick in my experience, whether immunized or not are almost always the people who eat healthily, are active, and get lots of sleep.
I really have not seen any significant difference between the immunized and the unimmunized.

I'll live a relatively healthy lifestyle and be clean, and I will probably end up being much less of a threat to anyone's children than a huge amount of those who are immunized who eat shit food, who aren't clean, etc, etc.

The science is not settled on vaccines, and while some vaccines seem completely harmless to take, others are not. One type is completely different than another. I will put nothing in my body until there are enough years of proven results, without large cases of bad side-effects, and there is a scientific consensus on the issue. That is not yet the case with many vaccines.

I don't think you understand how vaccines work or what they are. Like people have already said, vaccines target a specific disease; they don't prevent you from getting sick in general.

When your immune system is fighting a disease, it learns the signature of that disease and develops antibodies to defeat it. These antibodies then circulate throughout your body, looking for anything that resembles the disease they were made to defend against. If they find it, they immediately bind themselves to the disease causing pathogen and destroy it, before it can infect your body. This is why people usually don't get diseases like chicken pox more than once.

A vaccine is a non-disease causing form of the pathogen. They work by stimulating your immune system to make antibodies for the disease without making you sick from it.

[Tuuvi]

oops double post