Geert Wilders comes out of the closet as an anti-semite

[HoreTore]

I am not shocked.

The European far-right has always hated the jews. It was only a matter of time before the "new far-right" came out as antisemites, just like their older cousins.

It's not about "criticizing Islam". It's about hating everyone who do not look and act exactly as you do. And jews have toped the "people who are not like us"-list for a milennia.

Someone tell the White House to increase military spending. You'll need to rescue us from genocodal maniacs once again soon.

[Fragony]

They should just shut up, jews aren't special what goes for muslims goes for jews as well. A ban on ritual slaughter is a good thing, go somewhere else if you don't like it. So jews will leave, so what. Bye.

[rory_20_uk]

Sorry, sounds more like the anti-semite card being played.

I don't think that this method of slaughter is appropriate.
I don't think that female genital mutilation is appropriate.
I don't think that throwing wives onto the funeral pyre of their dead husbands is appropriate.
I don't think ritually strangling strangers as a religious act is appropriate.
I don't think that stoning adulterers to death is appropriate
I don't think skinning Vikings alive and nailing their skin to church doors is appropriate.
I don't think segreggation based on colour is appropriate.
I don't think raping virgins to cure AIDS is appropriate.

Merely that all these practices have been done doesn't make them acceptable. I am not bothered who does them. If one practice I am against is practiced by a particular group that is their problem - not mine. If there are places that let them practice this then fine, but it not up to me to tolerate every ritual that is done by anyone.

[Fragony]

They can roll up their anti-semite card and shove it up their arse. No special treatment for jews, I don't get any because I like to howl at the moon either.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am not shocked.

The European far-right has always hated the jews. It was only a matter of time before the "new far-right" came out as antisemites, just like their older cousins.

It's not about "criticizing Islam". It's about hating everyone who do not look and act exactly as you do. And jews have toped the "people who are not like us"-list for a milennia.

Someone tell the White House to increase military spending. You'll need to rescue us from genocodal maniacs once again soon.

The Political Left is also anti-Semetic - note the extremely rough ride the Israeli dance company got at the Fringe just because they recieve money from the government (why shouldn't they, they don't support extreme Zionism as a result).

I can't find the article on the Guardian website but, according to the author, during the performance (interrupted by protestors) an 82-year old Dutchman turned to her and said, "Don't worry, this isn't Kristalnaught, I remember that."

So...

I don't support slaughter without some form of stunning, even if it's just a hammer blow to the head, does that made me an Anti-Semite?

[HoreTore]

The Political Left is also anti-Semetic - note the extremely rough ride the Israeli dance company got at the Fringe just because they recieve money from the government (why shouldn't they, they don't support extreme Zionism as a result).

I can't find the article on the Guardian website but, according to the author, during the performance (interrupted by protestors) an 82-year old Dutchman turned to her and said, "Don't worry, this isn't Kristalnaught, I remember that."

So...

I don't support slaughter without some form of stunning, even if it's just a hammer blow to the head, does that made me an Anti-Semite?

Do you affiliate yourself politically with Geert Wilders, PVC?

[rory_20_uk]

Do you affiliate yourself politically with Geert Wilders, PVC?

It is possible, if not highly likely, to agree with almost everyone on some point of other. The allies had common ground with Stalin, Hitler was anti smoking, the Mafia tends to be pro-family values (however distorted / corrupted their other values might be).

I agree with Wilders on this particular topic. Wilders might have an agenda that this helps further that I don't have.

[Fragony]

The Political Left is also anti-Semetic - note the extremely rough ride the Israeli dance company got at the Fringe just because they recieve money from the government (why shouldn't they, they don't support extreme Zionism as a result).

I can't find the article on the Guardian website but, according to the author, during the performance (interrupted by protestors) an 82-year old Dutchman turned to her and said, "Don't worry, this isn't Kristalnaught, I remember that."

So...

I don't support slaughter without some form of stunning, even if it's just a hammer blow to the head, does that made me an Anti-Semite?

There was no Krystalnacht in the Netherlands, I don't know what he remembers but he may be senile. Horetore is just pointing out the irony as Wilders is regarded as a hardcore Israel lover by the left. But for Wilders Israel is just the canary in the colemine. It is probably true that he gets funds from jewish organisations but as you can see he is not on their leash as the left keeps furiously screaming.

[HoreTore]

It is possible, if not highly likely, to agree with almost everyone on some point of other.

I know, and that's why I asked PVC, but not you.

As far as I know, PVC is a tory, but his post makes me wonder if he also supports Wilders and the parties he represents...

[Fragony]

I know, and that's why I asked PVC, but not you.

As far as I know, PVC is a tory, but his post makes me wonder if he also supports Wilders and the parties he represents...

Which will naturally be a horrible thing to do. I don't vote on him but he's the only Dutch politician with some guts. Funny thing about lefties, they see fascim everywhere but they will never recognise it when looking into a mirror.

...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do you affiliate yourself politically with Geert Wilders, PVC?

No, but I've been involved in the slaughter of animals, so I know they aren't dead until the blood stop flowing.

I'm also not a "Tory", I vote Tory currently because I happen to think our current Tory MP here is very good.

The point is - this is a non issue viz anti-Semitism, as is the issue of infant circumcision (sp?)

My decidedly jaundiced views on "Jewish" political identity should be fairly well known on this forum, they can be summed up in three words - no special pleading.

[HoreTore]

What makes this case both extremely amusing and quite worrying, is the fact that no move is made to ban either factory farming or the fur industry.

That makes it clear that actual animal welfare is far from their minds, and so the only thing that remains is good ol' fashioned jew-hate.

It could also be an attempt to whitewash the practices of modern farming. The slaughterhouse, kosher or not, is probably one of the nicest times in the life of the animal, much better than living in the average farmhouse.

If you actually care about animal welfare, the method of slaughter will be the last thing on your mind. There are so many worse practices. The transport makes the Auswitchz express look pleasant, the fur industry is industrialized sadism, animals are pumped up on stroids to the point where they can't move normally anymore, but hey, at least we don't give them any space to move anyway.

These are real issues. The open question of which method of slaughter causes the most pain is not a real issue.

Geert Wilders agenda is not about animal welfare, it's about making everyone else conform to one way of living. His way of living.

[Fragony]

No, but I've been involved in the slaughter of animals, so I know they aren't dead until the blood stop flowing.

Those are just spasms, but why insist on the animal to be fully concious. Do that somewhere else. But Horetore proves himself to be a member of what we just LOVE call the leftist church here. If you agree with something Wilders says you are no longer 100% OK and must support everything Wilders says.

[HoreTore]

I'm also not a "Tory", I vote Tory currently because I happen to think our current Tory MP here is very good.

My apologies. I had the impression that you identified with the conservative party on a stronger basis than that.

I'll be sure to notify the Politbureau and have them update their lists....

[HoreTore]

Those are just spasms, but why insist on the animal to be fully concious. Do that somewhere else. But Horetore proves himself to be a member of what we just LOVE call the leftist church here. If you agree with something Wilders says you are no longer 100% OK and must support everything Wilders says.

I know I shouldn't respond to nonsense like this, but...

If what you say had any truth, frags, I would've asked rory as well. I didn't, mostly because my question wasn't based on PVC's agreement on kosher slaughter. It was rather based on a certain "X factor" of his post. The tone, the points made, the order the points were made etc all contributed to a certain undefinable thing that made me honestly wonder if he supported Wilders. As I thought he was a staunch Tory, that would be a rather dramatic shift in opinion, and such shifts are always interesting(at least to me).

To give an extreme example to conter your nonsense, a Neo-Nazi would agree that kosher slaughter should be banned. It's highly unlikely, however, that a neo-nazi would support Wilders.

[rory_20_uk]

But in the UK at least, this practice is banned for everyone else. Why the exception? To point at other things is merely deflection. The issue is simply - there is a law and it should apply to everyone. Want to ban the fur trade? Fine. For everyone, not except Cossacks as they need it for their hats.

Conform to his way of living. Probably. Sounds like a good idea to me. And interestingly on this issue, you are choosing to point out what goes on in a very permissive society:

In the news a Palestinian has immolated himself due to the conditions imposed by Israel
Pakistan has arrested a mentally retarded girl for having burnt pages of the Koran - which turns out was a plant as a local Cleric wants to get rid of Christians. Thi was under the blasphemy laws, but was also to try to stop the crowd rioting / lynching her and others.
The desecration in Timbuktu by... oh yes Islamic militants.
Not in the news, but Saudia Arabia / Birhain...

SO, to use your own standarrds, there are far bigger issues than what happens by dear ol' Geert. Why not focus on these far greater abuses?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What makes this case both extremely amusing and quite worrying, is the fact that no move is made to ban either factory farming or the fur industry.

That makes it clear that actual animal welfare is far from their minds, and so the only thing that remains is good ol' fashioned jew-hate.

It could also be an attempt to whitewash the practices of modern farming. The slaughterhouse, kosher or not, is probably one of the nicest times in the life of the animal, much better than living in the average farmhouse.

If you actually care about animal welfare, the method of slaughter will be the last thing on your mind. There are so many worse practices. The transport makes the Auswitchz express look pleasant, the fur industry is industrialized sadism, animals are pumped up on stroids to the point where they can't move normally anymore, but hey, at least we don't give them any space to move anyway.

These are real issues. The open question of which method of slaughter causes the most pain is not a real issue.

Geert Wilders agenda is not about animal welfare, it's about making everyone else conform to one way of living. His way of living.

You're assuming anti-Semitism when ignorance is a better explanation.

When I first went to university I explained the process of slaughter and butchery to some of the people in my Halls - they were horrified that I not only understood but had taken part in such things. One person actually described me as "sick" and wouldn't talk to me for a week - After a week he got over it and apolagised.

People have an extreme reaction to slaughter, it allows them to ignore the rest of the industrialised farming process and continue eating supermarket chicken.

There's nothing anti-Semitic about this law, it's populist, but it panders to people's sensibilities, not their prejudices.

Likewise, the fur trade is not "sadistic", it's is simply an unpleasent business.

[HoreTore]

Why not focus on these far greater abuses?

I don't? That's news to me.

The problem with your reasoning, is that they have taken an active stance on the other issues - and they say it's okay. If I had said that the issues you brought up are a-okay, then yes, you'd have a valid point. But I find them very not okay.

This isn't about which topics are being discussed right now, this is about the stance you take on the issues. I don't support banning kosher AND I find both blasphemy laws and desecration of Timbuktu to be wrong.

Wilders opposes kosher, but has no problem with the fur industry. That's the problem. If he had opposed the fur industry, for example, a ban on kosher is consistant with animal rights even if he doesn't make an active move to ban fur.

As for the slaughter regulations; they are in need of a remake, like most other regulations in agriculture. I have, however, sincere doubts that kosher slaughter inflicts more pain on the animal than other forms of slaughter. And frankly, unlike the way we transport our animals(for example), this kind of pain is quite acceptable to me. If you can't kill an animal without sedating them, how can you avoid banning hunting?

Hunting animals is okay with me, even though I know the animal feels pain(including the 10% who are only wounded). So why would I have a problem with a slaughter method that inflicts less pain?

[Fragony]

I know I shouldn't respond to nonsense like this, but...

If what you say had any truth, frags, I would've asked rory as well. I didn't, mostly because my question wasn't based on PVC's agreement on kosher slaughter. It was rather based on a certain "X factor" of his post. The tone, the points made, the order the points were made etc all contributed to a certain undefinable thing that made me honestly wonder if he supported Wilders. As I thought he was a staunch Tory, that would be a rather dramatic shift in opinion, and such shifts are always interesting(at least to me).

To give an extreme example to conter your nonsense, a Neo-Nazi would agree that kosher slaughter should be banned. It's highly unlikely, however, that a neo-nazi would support Wilders.

Of course they wouldn't, they hate his guts, neo-nazi's vote socialist. Just kinda curious how you put PVC into Wilders territory, youknow, the mechanisms involved. But I already know the answer to that, the suffocating social control within the leftist church. You are either 100% OK or suspect. Leftist Lemmings are always looking for comfirmation

[rory_20_uk]

@Fragony, lumping everyone in the left is ironically just as bad as what you claim they are doing.

~:smoking

[HoreTore]

You're assuming anti-Semitism when ignorance is a better explanation.

Good point.

We have removed ourselves far from the food we eat now. I believe we as a society could benefit from a better understanding of what the food goes through before it ends up on the plate, as part of our moral education. We kill animals in order to live, we should have a better understanding of what exactly that means.

Btw, I haven't worked at a slaughterhouse myself, but my ex did her bachelors on methods of slaughter, so I do know how it works.

Likewise, the fur trade is not "sadistic", it's is simply an unpleasent business.

While it may be a touch of hyperbole, I stand by my words. Food is a necessary product, fur is not. I define sadism as inflicting unnecessary pain, and so fur farms fits that description.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I know I shouldn't respond to nonsense like this, but...

If what you say had any truth, frags, I would've asked rory as well. I didn't, mostly because my question wasn't based on PVC's agreement on kosher slaughter. It was rather based on a certain "X factor" of his post. The tone, the points made, the order the points were made etc all contributed to a certain undefinable thing that made me honestly wonder if he supported Wilders. As I thought he was a staunch Tory, that would be a rather dramatic shift in opinion, and such shifts are always interesting(at least to me).

To give an extreme example to conter your nonsense, a Neo-Nazi would agree that kosher slaughter should be banned. It's highly unlikely, however, that a neo-nazi would support Wilders.

The "X factor" you detect is my irritation with you for equating the far-right with anti-Semitism when it is the well known vise of populist European politcians from across the political spectrum - the reference I made to protests at the Festival was to illustrate the point that anti-Semitism is currently more popular and accepted on the Left. The current vise of the Right is anti-Muslim prejudice.

Technically, both are ant-Semiticm (or can be) but that wasn't the point you were making.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Good point.

We have removed ourselves far from the food we eat now. I believe we as a society could benefit from a better understanding of what the food goes through before it ends up on the plate, as part of our moral education. We kill animals in order to live, we should have a better understanding of what exactly that means.

Btw, I haven't worked at a slaughterhouse myself, but my ex did her bachelors on methods of slaughter, so I do know how it works.

Technical knowledge is one thing, holding the sheep while your father cuts its throat is something else entirely.

Not nice, not nice at all.

While it may be a touch of hyperbole, I stand by my words. Food is a necessary product, fur is not. I define sadism as inflicting unnecessary pain, and so fur farms fits that description.

I take your point, fur as fashion is certainly vanity, but "Sadism" implies people derive pleasure from the suffering, when in fact most people obfusticate the suffering or practice cognitive dissoncance on the issue.

[Fragony]

@Fragony, lumping everyone in the left is ironically just as bad as what you claim they are doing.

~:smoking

It's just a certain type, you probably know which one. Not every leftie is a devout member of the leftist church, most vote for daddy's party, but the ones that are very leftist just don't understand that they are in fact deeply religious. I have little patience for absolute faith personally.

[HoreTore]

The "X factor" you detect is my irritation with you for equating the far-right with anti-Semitism when it is the well known vise of populist European politcians from across the political spectrum - the reference I made to protests at the Festival was to illustrate the point that anti-Semitism is currently more popular and accepted on the Left. The current vise of the Right is anti-Muslim prejudice.

Technically, both are ant-Semiticm (or can be) but that wasn't the point you were making.

I'm actually not politically active. The reason for that is because the party I would affiliate with engage in "criticism of Israel" that I find crosses the antisemitism-line way to regularly, and I don't want to be caught with such hatemongerers.

Bah, I guess I'll drop the socialists and go with the Greens in a few years...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm actually not politically active. The reason for that is because the party I would affiliate with engage in "criticism of Israel" that I find crosses the antisemitism-line way to regularly, and I don't want to be caught with such hatemongerers.

Bah, I guess I'll drop the socialists and go with the Greens in a few years...

Well, don't you think that speaks volumes?

How I feel about anti-Semitism, especially dressed up as Israel/banker-bashing should be fairly obvious by the amount of venom I poured on Ken Livingstone during the London Mayorla Election.

[HoreTore]

Well, don't you think that speaks volumes?

I do.

Hence why I haven't been a member of any party or organization since I was 19.

[Furunculus]

I am not shocked.

The European far-right has always hated the jews. It was only a matter of time before the "new far-right" came out as antisemites, just like their older cousins.

It's not about "criticizing Islam". It's about hating everyone who do not look and act exactly as you do. And jews have toped the "people who are not like us"-list for a milennia.

Someone tell the White House to increase military spending. You'll need to rescue us from genocodal maniacs once again soon.

just so we all understand what the hyperbole above is referring to let me present the title of the linked article:

"Israel’s chief rabbi warns Dutch populist politician over kosher slaughter ban"

Not exactly calling for the ovens to be set to maximum is he!

[Fragony]

just so we all understand what the hyperbole above is referring to let me present the title of the linked article:

"Israel’s chief rabbi warns Dutch populist politician over kosher slaughter ban"

Not exactly calling for the ovens to be set to maximum is he!

Oh screw him, he got a perfectly fine wall to wail at in jeruzalem. Jews happy, we not all that bothered. Pretty nice eventually. Piss off is as mildly as I can put it, choke on your beard torah-jugend

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I do.

Hence why I haven't been a member of any party or organization since I was 19.

So, the point of this Topic was to wind Frags up?

Because it appears to have worked.