rvg, some couple of years later?

[rvg]

But you realise they only started killing our guys in Afghanistan after​ we went in there.

They thought they could harbor OBL and get away with it. They thought wrong.

[Kadagar_AV]

They are killing our guys in Afghanistan and threatening the already explosive situation in Pakistan.

OH NOES!! Are the EVIL EVIL Talibans killing troppers You send there? No wonder You feel You have the right to not only kill them, but torture them as well then.

[rvg]

OH NOES!! Are the EVIL EVIL Talibans killing troppers You send there? No wonder You feel You have the right to not only kill them, but torture them as well then.

And your point is?

[Kadagar_AV]

And your point is?

If a nation sent assassination teams against their own and foreign citizens.
If it was known for spying on Western nations, it also tracks any electronic communication by its own citizens.
If it refused to send its war criminals to the international court.
If it was open about torturing others.
If it started wars killing civilians left and right, on very sketchy grounds...
If its operatives directs an attack against UN personnel.


This Nation would be rather evil, no? So You'd think it OK if more civilized countries would occupy it and torture the population?

[rvg]

This Nation would be rather evil, no?

Of course not.

So You'd think it OK if more civilized countries would occupy it and torture the population?

They can try... How did Clint Eastwood put it? Oh yeah: "Go ahead, make my day."

[Lemur]

Gah, if we're going to veer off into whether or not the occupation of Afghanistan was legit, and whether or not the U.S.A. is some uniquely horrible entity, then I'm going to tag out.

This whole thread has a rather retro vibe to it. Carry on.

[rvg]

Gah, if we're going to veer off into whether or not the occupation of Afghanistan was legit, and whether or not the U.S.A. is some uniquely horrible entity, then I'm going to tag out.

This whole thread has a rather retro vibe to it. Carry on.

Yeah, you do that. You evil American, you.

[Kadagar_AV]

Gah, if we're going to veer off into whether or not the occupation of Afghanistan was legit, and whether or not the U.S.A. is some uniquely horrible entity, then I'm going to tag out.

This whole thread has a rather retro vibe to it. Carry on.

I just find the mental hurdles interesting, that pro-USA fanatics have to jump.. And the way they do it is rather amusing. It is also scary how so much is trumpeted out as being "good" or "just" about the USA, where in fact the rest of the world look at USA and think it rather rotten from within. Not to mention dangerous, as the former reasons to go to war seem to have been set aside.

Oh well, I just wondered if RVG had changed plenty of years after originally having high and loud defended the American ideal, and defended breaking those ideals, to, you know, save those ideals, because that makes sense, see?

I have found that a lot of Americans have switched view after the initial paranoia around the WTC attacks died down. But I guess not all. Or even enough.

[Hax]

Which of course was a lie since OBL *was* there and later on he admitted masterminding 9/11

Indeed he was. It does not necessarily imply the Taliban.

Worked out well enough.

And yet, our guys are still being killed. Worked out well enough?

Lots of epithets. Can you give me some evidence to support them?

Hindsight is always 20/20, but let's give it a go, quoting from William L. Cleveland's book A History of the Modern Middle East:

Yet perhaps the most crucial link among September 11, al-Qa'ida, and the core Middle East can be traced to US foreign policy and perceptions of the United States itself [...] It seemed to come as a surprise to many Amerians that their country's policies could generate levels of anger frustration sufficient to trigger suh deadly retribution. Yet, as we have seen eswhere in this beek, recent history reveals a pattern of US policy that was insensitive to, and largely ignroant of, Arab and Islamic public opinion.

For example, concerning the invasion of Iraq:

As Ali Allawi writes, "Being an afterthought does not give rise to gratitute and celebration"

And Lebanon:

Lebanese leaders who pushed for aligning their country more closely with the West were gravely undermined by the assessment of the [2006] war by American Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's description of the bloodshed as "the birth pangs of a new Middle East"

And political Islam:

Not only did American policy lump together a diverse collection of actors whose interests often lashed (for example, al-Qa'ida, Saddam Husayn, and the Iranian government), it marginalized religious parties that had followed a strategy of political participation. It alsno ignored the vast majorityt of Islamists who were working peacefully for domestic reforms within their respective countries. By constructing a framework that judged all Islamic movement s in the narrow contet of its security interests and antiterrorist measures, the United States distaned itself from tgenuinely popular movements within Islamic states and reated barriers to working with the forces that might shape the future of Islam globally.

You can buy the book on Amazon for 26 dollars secondhand. I'd recommend it.

There's a whole lot of difference between the Afghan and the Iraqi campaigns. I fully supported the Afghan campaign and never supported the Iraqi one.

Indeed.

[rvg]

And yet, our guys are still being killed. Worked out well enough?

Well enough.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but let's give it a go, quoting from William L. Cleveland's book A History of the Modern Middle East:

Being insensitive to public opinion <> "characterised by general ignorance concerning even aspects that any amateur historian or anthropologist could know about the Middle-East"

For example, concerning the invasion of Iraq:

I never defended the invasion of Iraq.

And Lebanon:

That's Israel, not us.

And political Islam:

Like Hamas?

You can buy the book on Amazon for 26 dollars secondhand. I'd recommend it.

It's not worth $26.00

Are you going to invade Pakistan as well then? In so far that you're not doing it already.

If the Taliban takes over? Hell yes. We can't allow Taliban get their hands on the nukes.

[Fragony]

OH NOES!! Are the EVIL EVIL Talibans killing troppers You send there? No wonder You feel You have the right to not only kill them, but torture them as well then.

You like the idea of the Taliban getting a hold of Pakistan?

[Hax]

They thought they could harbor OBL and get away with it. They thought wrong.

Not exactly. What we see as "the Taliban" is actually a pretty loose confederation of different groups in that particular area, some, but definitely not all of them militant. In fact, when the attacks happened, most Taliban leaders actually condemned the 9/11 attacks and denied that Bin Laden was involved or that he was even in the country at the time. Whether or not this is true, one might question the effectiveness of sending an entire army into Afghanistan to capture or kill a single person, which was in fact proven when Bin Laden was assassinated by the strike force over in Abottabad last year.

U.S. policy towards the Middle-East can be characterised by general ignorance concerning even aspects that any amateur historian or anthropologist could know about the Middle-East. As for conspiracy theories and their believers, I have no patience for them. I don't think there are that many ulterior motives where it concerns the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think it's plain to see that the invasions were based on misguided preconceptions, a general lack of research and fear mongering.

[rvg]

... and denied that Bin Laden was involved or that he was even in the country at the time.

Which of course was a lie since OBL *was* there and later on he admitted masterminding 9/11

Whether or not this is true, one might question the effectiveness of sending an entire army into Afghanistan to capture or kill a single person, which was in fact proven when Bin Laden was assassinated by the strike force over in Abottabad last year.

Worked out well enough.

U.S. policy towards the Middle-East can be characterised by general ignorance concerning even aspects that any amateur historian or anthropologist could know about the Middle-East.

Lots of epithets. Can you give me some evidence to support them?

As for conspiracy theories and their believers, I have no patience for them. I don't think there are that many ulterior motives where it concerns the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think it's plain to see that the invasions were based on misguided preconceptions, a general lack of research and fear mongering.

There's a whole lot of difference between the Afghan and the Iraqi campaigns. I fully supported the Afghan campaign and never supported the Iraqi one.

[Conradus]

They thought they could harbor OBL and get away with it. They thought wrong.

Are you going to invade Pakistan as well then? In so far that you're not doing it already.