rvg, some couple of years later?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If that is your opinion, that's just fine. Note that I did not start this thread and did not volunteer my opinion, but I'll be damned if I change it to conform to the views of the crowd. Your arguments for your position come from your set of values and mine come from my set of values. So, stick to your guns, and I'll stick to mine. For as long as the drones keep flying, I don't have to prove anything to anybody.

The argument doesn't come "from a set of values" it comes from this never having worked.

How can you not grasp this? From the Romans to Stalin these campaigns against dissidents have universally​ failed.

[rvg]

The argument ... comes from this never having worked.

But that's quite simply a false statement. It does work.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But that's quite simply a false statement. It does work.

Example?

Didn't work for the Romans, the Roman Catholics, the Protestants, Napoleons, the Russians, the Germans, the British, more recently it didn't work for Egypt, Tunisia, Libya or Syria.

I'm sure I've missed a few, other regimes that tried to suppress descent and collapsed.

[rvg]

Example?

Certainly...

In his memoir, former CIA Director George Tenet writes:
A published report in 2006 contended that Abu Zubaydah was mentally unstable and that the administration had overstated his importance. Baloney. Abu Zubaydah had been at the crossroads of many al-Qa'ida operations and was in position to – and did – share critical information with his interrogators. Apparently, the source of the rumor that Abu Zubaydah was unbalanced was his personal diary, in which he adopted various personas. From that shaky perch, some junior Freudians leapt to the conclusion that Zubaydah had multiple personalities. In fact, Agency psychiatrists eventually determined that in his diary he was using a sophisticated literary device to express himself. And, boy, did he express himself.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Certainly...

The opinion of several US Government agents appears to be that he was tortured, and that there was no reason to believe those methods would be effective in getting him to talk.

He's been confined for a decade, at what point did he start producing reliable and useful intel? was it while the CIA was torturing, and they clearly were, or after when the FBI questioned him?

What I wanted, however, was an example of a regime employing such techniques as suppression of ideas that was effective.

You can't use the US because you haven't won anything, and by the looks of the recent protests you are losing the war of ideas badly.

[rvg]

What I wanted, however, was an example of a regime employing such techniques as suppression of ideas that was effective.

I never advocated the use of torture for any purpose other than to extract valuable information from terrorists.

You can't use the US because you haven't won anything...

I'm not sure what you're talking about here...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here...

I'm talking strategically - the fact that you are known to torture Muslim detainees is part of the reason why you have mass riots across the Middle East aimed at the US specifically.

You've spent pages and pages calling me weak, trying to get me to say I'd use torture in extremis - but your entire argument hinges on things ever getting that bad, and what I'm trying to tell you is they are getting worse for the US because of things like using torture on detainees.

You're losing the war of ideas, and your people are less safe as a result - look at the deterioration in Pakistan, a former US ally.

[rvg]

double post