The House of Origin [Concluded]

[White_eyes:D]

What bothers me is that TinCow was protected by two people, how do we know that they weren't just lucky townies?

[Montmorency]

You've crossed the line from interrogating for lynch purposes to trying to gain names of active vigging townies. I specifically said that on N5 we had two full sets of two, plus a fifth, so the kill absolutely would have succeeded under the rules and there's no purpose at all for you to need to know the extra names. The questionable activity was on N1, with the group of 3, not N2, with the group of 5. You are fishing for information, and you are scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Monty

Yes, I'm fishing for information. That the point!

I'll walk you through it: if 5 players vig, and 4 are scum, and the 5 players reveal and vouch for each other, then they are guaranteed to be non-scum at this stage. If only four vouch, then there is a risk that the whole scum-team has gone in. Do you understand my point? With my tetrarchy, Arjos was likely killed by the same pair which killed Atheotes: that is, scum. So the four scum couldn't be our number.

Do you get it?

Trying to get mass-revealers lynched because they want more transparency is highly suspect behavior, Tincow. Additionally, it can not be forgotten that BSmith was apparently killed by a 3rd-party type.

I strongly recommend that Tincow's partner vouch for him. As it stands, Tincow + Riedquat+ Whiteyes might be the Mafia group.

That's all - your partner need only reveal, and the chain will be complete. What makes you so afeared of the request?

What bothers me is that TinCow was protected by two people, how do we know that they weren't just lucky townies?

Yes, that's why I'd like them to reveal as well. Scum would have no incentive to go around protecting townies.

[TinCow]

Yes, I'm fishing for information. That the point!

I'll walk you through it: if 5 players vig, and 4 are scum, and the 5 players reveal and vouch for each other, then they are guaranteed to be non-scum at this stage. If only four vouch, then there is a risk that the whole scum-team has gone in. Do you understand my point? With my tetrarchy, Arjos was likely killed by the same pair which killed Atheotes: that is, scum. So the four scum couldn't be our number..

The rules say there are 4 mafioso. There was a kill by two people on N2, and no townies are claiming it, unlike the other kills. That kill is almost certainly mafia, which means that there cannot possibly be 4 mafioso in my group. Plus, I'm not that stupid. Do you really think that if I was mafia I would participate in a vig action with all of my scum partners, plus add on a fifth person so they would know the names of the entire group?

[Montmorency]

There was a kill by two people on N2, and no townies are claiming it, unlike the other kills. That kill is almost certainly mafia,

Mmm, yes, I mentioned this?

which means that there cannot possibly be 4 mafioso in my group.

That doesn't follow. What I'm saying is that it's possible that you as a scum team took credit for the Zack attack; if 5 were to vouch, or 4 with 1 dead even, then that possibility could be ruled out.

plus add on a fifth person so they would know the names of the entire group?

Fictively tack on a 5th, is what I'm getting at. That's why we need everyone's confirmation.

[TinCow]

That doesn't follow. What I'm saying is that it's possible that you as a scum team took credit for the Zack attack; if 5 were to vouch, or 4 with 1 dead even, then that possibility could be ruled out.

Let me get this straight, you're claiming it's possible I'm taking responsibility for a kill I didn't do to save myself. A kill in which the write-up specifically says 5 people were involved. How stupid would I have to be to make a claim like that, when there were 5 people who could call me a liar? And so far we have people confirming what I've said, and no one disputing it. You really think I wasn't on that kill?

[Montmorency]

Let me get this straight, you're claiming it's possible I'm taking responsibility for a kill I didn't do to save myself. A kill in which the write-up specifically says 5 people were involved. How stupid would I have to be to make a claim like that, when there were 5 people who could call me a liar? And so far we have people confirming what I've said, and no one disputing it. You really think I wasn't on that kill?

♫ I've got to be sure, when I walk out that door. ♪

Yes, it technically is possible:

Doesn't want to reveal his partner, because White eyes is his partner and BSmith was town - Ried made a slip.

Doesn't want to reveal partner because there is none to reveal; Ried, Bsmith, Tincow, and Whiteyes were the starting scum.

Technically. I have some faith in you, however, and doubt that you would panic into this kind of trap. Riedquat, on the other hand...

There isn't really a reason not to reveal though, as it let's the viggers know whom to avoid. With your partner and your protectors, we could have 11/22 effectively cleared, with Pizza not far behind. You have not provided even a single reason for your intransigence.

[TinCow]

There isn't really a reason not to reveal though, as it let's the viggers know whom to avoid. With your partner and your protectors, we could have 11/22 effectively cleared, with Pizza not far behind. You have not provided even a single reason for your intransigence.

You can't think of a single reason not to publicly name players who are active and vigging? You don't think the mafia might want to get rid of those people?

[Montmorency]

You can't think of a single reason not to publicly name players who are active and vigging? You don't think the mafia might want to get rid of those people?

You can't think of a single reason why it might be better on that very count to have 11 of 22 rather than only 8 of 22 confirmed as town, for purposes of both the lynch and night actions?

[TinCow]

You can't think of a single reason why it might be better on that very count to have 11 of 22 rather than only 8 of 22 confirmed as town, for purposes of both the lynch and night actions?

Nope, since you can't even 'confirm' any of us as townies. The write-up shows two group kills, a duo kill, and what looks like a solo kill. At best, we're still missing one mafioso, likely two. Those extras could be hiding in the vig groups and just participating with us, so even knowing our names means nothing. Someone who's putting this much effort into lynching me with 'logic' should be aware of this.

[Montmorency]

and what looks like a solo kill.

Two, actually. One group-kill failed, as you well know.

Someone who's putting this much effort into lynching me with 'logic' should be aware of this.

I'm trying to avoid your lynch...

Yes, the Mafia may indeed have infiltrated a full pair (the second) into one of our group-conglomerates. On the other hand, if all of these "cleared" have N1 alibis, and their presence is confirmed by the numbers in the writeups...

Why would half the Mafia team waste time on an extended townie cooperation scheme, when, by being placed into their own discrete pairs from the beginning, could have quietly gone about their own Mafia thing? Or do you suggest that one of the pairs is specifically geared toward an infiltration role?

At the very least, these named are in the 90%+ range. You must admit this.

[TinCow]

Just give it up, I'm not giving you the last name. You will not convince me otherwise. If you want to lynch me for that, then just get it over with. This conversation has long passed it usefulness and it's giving everyone but you and I a free ride through this day phase.

[Buddhafish]

Hmm, both interesting arguments.

I have to agree with TinCow a bit more though, Monty. Just because all of the people who were in vig groups claim publicly doesn't make them town.

Vote: Abstain, because that's all I really have time for right now.

[Chaotix]

Hmm, both interesting arguments.

I have to agree with TinCow a bit more though, Monty. Just because all of the people who were in vig groups claim publicly doesn't make them town.

Vote: Abstain, because that's all I really have time for right now.

Wrong. If we know there are four mafia (we do) and we know all four of them were in last night's write-up (we don't, only three are clearly present), then we know everyone else in the write-up is innocent.

However, that doesn't meant it's necessarily a good idea to reveal them publicly. Privately and to a trustable source would be better.

[Montmorency]

I hope your partner and protectors do the right thing, in the end.

Vote: Autolycus

Edse, a tally? We should try to at least avoid lynching one of the 8...

I have to agree with TinCow a bit more though, Monty. Just because all of the people who were in vig groups claim publicly doesn't make them town.

There's more to it than that. Go through the posts again.

we don't, only three are clearly present

Three? There were two: Arjos' killers. Presumably the same that killed Atheotes yesterday. The other two may be dead or performing other actions (in fact, they may have abilities beyond killing; with such large teams, it is not uncommon - it is even likely. They may even be restricted to one kill per night...).

[Montmorency]

Vote: Autolycus

[Riedquat]

♫ I've got to be sure, when I walk out that door. ♪

Yes, it technically is possible:

Doesn't want to reveal his partner, because White eyes is his partner and BSmith was town - Ried made a slip.

Doesn't want to reveal partner because there is none to reveal; Ried, Bsmith, Tincow, and Whiteyes were the starting scum.

Technically. I have some faith in you, however, and doubt that you would panic into this kind of trap. Riedquat, on the other hand...

Huh? I'm panicking? You had seen me panicking in the past Monty... can't see why do you think I'm panicking now, I'm nobody this time around :)

[Riedquat]

tincow 4 (andres chaotix doublea ishmael)
WE:D 1 (edse)
jolt 2 (gh jarema)
lazy maccrow (1 makrell)
edse 1 (WE)
jarema 1 (visorslash)
monty 1 (tincow)
autolycus 1 (monty)

And a couple absteining, feel free to recheck

[Jarema]

Montmorency, I think that participating in attack groups last night does not clear anyone.
Scum may sent orders together with other players. We do not know how many scum is out there. I am afraid it would be too easy if we could take innocence of our partner for granted

[Jarema]

oops I missed that there are only 4 mafioso.
well...

[Captain Blackadder]

Vote:Jolt

I think that Tincow is making a lot of sense to me with this game revealing the groups would not work as Tincow said his partner did not give the order.Yet the kill went through with no issue.There is nothing in the write up that I can see to indicate that someone did not send in orders.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: GH

Absolutely no reason. I am placing a vote to indicate my activity and general disinterest in every case made so far. Too lazy to work harder.

[LazyMcCrow]

You've crossed the line from interrogating for lynch purposes to trying to gain names of active vigging townies. I specifically said that on N5 we had two full sets of two, plus a fifth, so the kill absolutely would have succeeded under the rules and there's no purpose at all for you to need to know the extra names. The questionable activity was on N1, with the group of 3, not N2, with the group of 5. You are fishing for information, and you are scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Monty

I agree. In the write-up it says that TinCow was some doddery old scholar - albeit apparently a vengeful vigilante one. Something quite zesty and zealous about Monty's interrogation.

vote: Montmorency

[Choxorn]

http://sas.guidespot.com/bundles/gui...VZVv2pAFoT.jpg

Edited to remove hotlinking

[Montmorency]

I think that Tincow is making a lot of sense to me with this game revealing the groups would not work as Tincow said his partner did not give the order.Yet the kill went through with no issue.There is nothing in the write up that I can see to indicate that someone did not send in orders.

I agree. In the write-up it says that TinCow was some doddery old scholar - albeit apparently a vengeful vigilante one. Something quite zesty and zealous about Monty's interrogation.

Montmorency, I think that participating in attack groups last night does not clear anyone.
Scum may sent orders together with other players. We do not know how many scum is out there. I am afraid it would be too easy if we could take innocence of our partner for granted

Are you just taking the piss? I addressed these points!

As for McCrow, well, that's the worst thing I've seen all game. You're (a), taking the character's personal appearance in the writeups as definitive proof of anything, and (b), zesty - really?

It hasn't escaped my notice that you three are not among the Eight...

Retrack through my posts, if the welfare of the town is really in your best interests.

[Riedquat]

bleh
Vote: abstain

[Jarema]

Are you just taking the piss? I addressed these points!

tl; dr

[Buddhafish]

Well from what I read, there were two or three (it's being disputed) mafioso in the write-up, along with some vig groups. The game says there are four mafioso.

2 (or 3) = 4? I don't think that math adds up. Ergo, there could have been a mafioso in a vig group. Maybe two. Maybe there's a mafioso pair sneaking into a town vig group. Maybe there is a mafioso partnered with a townie, all used to establish credibility. I've seen that strategy used before, and I've used it before. People being in vig groups only proves that they were active.

That's where I disagree with you, Monty.

[seireikhaan]

Round over, got some tallying to do.

[Montmorency]

2 (or 3) = 4? I don't think that math adds up. Ergo, there could have been a mafioso in a vig group. Maybe two. Maybe there's a mafioso pair sneaking into a town vig group. Maybe there is a mafioso partnered with a townie, all used to establish credibility. I've seen that strategy used before, and I've used it before. People being in vig groups only proves that they were active.

Here's the breakdown again.

If the Mafia are in their own groups - and we know that this is true about at least one pair, the one that killed Atheotes and Arjos - then why would one pair waste time getting in with townies? There's not much to gain, unless you assert that this hypothetical group is geared toward infiltration. Infiltration only makes sense if you have no abilities and only one kill is allotted for the Mafia per night, or if your ability is geared toward infiltration. And why assume such a thing? Why not rather assume that the Mafia would be performing their own night actions according to their own special abilities? Furthermore, why would they, if cooperating with town, do so two nights in a row?

Again: Again, we know that one of our pairs is full-mafia. it has killed twice so far. Khaan's wording:

The mafia may be infiltrated into these starting groups, or may be in their own groups (plural).

This makes it basically certain that the other two scum are in a pair as well. I believe I have demonstrated clearly that this pair would probably be in a supporting role for now, or has been broken apart through the death of one scum. A supporting pair would only work with townies for two nights in a row if the two scum in it have no abilities or abilities geared toward infiltration.

The most crucial thing you should keep in mind about these cleared is that they are not absolutely cleared; they are instead in the 90+% range, or "almost-as-good-as-it-will-get". The lynch for tomorrow and the day after tomorrow must be decided against a player outside this group of 8. What I have put forth should be good for at least that much.

By the way, Tincow is being lynched in 2 minutes. Good job, guys.

[Zack]

Your logic is flawed. It's far more likely that one starting pair consists of two mafia, and that two other starting pairs consist of one mafia and one townie each.