Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!

Because that is how debates work.

The two of you are talking at cross purposes - I've skimmed your posts but I already know the whole argument because we've had it so many times here.

total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.

Kadagar - go have a beer and don't worry about it. Aftr the beer, it may make more sense.

[Kadagar_AV]

I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.

Having said that...



Only if you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation, an elementary statistical analysis concept.

Also, there's probably better books to read on atheist morality than Dawkin's, who's a jerk.

CR

Of course it's a rubbish argument. I just tried to meet the OP on a more level playing field.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The two of you are talking at cross purposes - I've skimmed your posts but I already know the whole argument because we've had it so many times here.

I'm not going to read TR's walls of copypasta, but from what I can gather...

I think Kadagar is talking more on the practical side - that atheists generally are moral people. Whereas TR is trying to say that in doing so atheists are being logically inconsistent, as in his own less eloquent fashion he is referring to your argument that absolute morals can't exist without a universial arbiter ie God.

Although TR is frustrated because he thinks Kadagar can't see this (he may or may not), the real problem is that TR is not open to the idea of any other concepts of morality - for example that morals might not be absolute, and may just be the result of evolution. He might not regard such an idea of morality as meaningful, but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid (if not correct) explanation.

Otherwise everyone will continue to be at cross purposes.

total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.

This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.

I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...

[Ironside]

King David, what I think your referring to is he could not build the temple, as he had to much blood on his hands.

Jesus
Not sure what if true would have to do with anything? I studies Ruth I have no idea what your talking about, neither does Deuteronomy passages say anything on it.

Great granny Ruth (to David) was a Moabite and it's less than 10 generations in between. Jesus is supposed to be a decendant from David. Moab was the child/grandchild of Lot. Since there's quite a few generations between and God is lacking a bit of people (due to wiping them out from time to time) it's mostly for fun.

Homosexuality is condemned in OT, i agree 100%, not sure why that is a "contradiction" in any way. I keep 100% of OT, but I think you misunderstand alittle here and would be glad to clarify. Much of OT applies only for time,space,certain peoples. Just one example, when god told noah to build a big boat, that does not mean me as a believer should today.

Yes, and the interpretations on this aren't absolute. That is a bit of problem when talking about moral absolutes.

God is horible
Genocide, generational punishments,mind control, etc. I would love to disuse these all with you, you bring up all the topics of a atheist book. I will ask you hold on the "genocide" conquest of cannan. That being my favorite, I wish to do a thread of its own, as i do with twc and other forums.That is my favorite, because atheist are so sure of what they have been told and the few passages they quotes that certainly seem to support there claim. That filling in the rest really lets them down, I love that part. The other two bring up exsaples I would love to tell you from bible what is meant, and exspalin the passages for you.

The atheist book you mentioned I've read is called the Bible. I'm guessing you're familiar with that one. Notions of genocide: The flood, (duh), Sodom and Gomorra, active threat (plague) on the Jews for deviation of faith (Jews saved by active murder showing devotion to God) and the following retaliation which Moses ups (to cultural genocide, only virgins left) from what the original commanders did (and they were quite brutal).

Hell I will answer now
Generational curse This applies if the following generation continues in the sin of the fathers, saying they too will be punished, when they dont, they are not punished.

Deut 23:1 is specific in that the punishment are on the children and their decendants and not the sinning parents. God took a very long time to forgive the original sin so it's not like it's a unique occurence. Besides, that's a quite suspect interpretation (as in: don't like the original one, let's make up one that sounds better, but is much less based on what's written). Unless there was some bizarre idea that is your parents sinned, you're immune to that sin (say that your father was a thief leads to that you can steal without any problem), there's no need to specify that it only applies if they continue the sins of thier ancestors.

The 10 generations are a nice show that the person isn't familiar to population demographics. The 2 parents, 4 grandparents, etc, etc. gives 2^10-1=1023 couples that might have cheated. With 1% cheating ratio (that's a very low count), only about 3 out of 100.000 fullfills that demand.

Harden heart
For example pharaoh harded his heart many times first, than later god "streghtend" or "harden" his heart. He gave him strength to do what his heart wanted, lateer he did same thing again chasing after isreal himself.

The Bible never states the original opinion of the Pharao. Besides, even with this interpretation, God still actively searches a confrontation which will result in the punishment of the Egyptians. That is cruel and a show off display of destructive powers.

The bible is against slavery [punsiable by death in OT]. But overall I agree with your atheist morality, majority opinion as I said on OP. The reason in part slavery was so popular was because darwin taught people that blacks were not fully human, so its not slavery.

The origin of species came out 1859, the US civil war started 1861 (a definite stop to slave import in the US). No, slavery was not popular because of the idea of evolution. Examples of justifications of slavery were that they were decendants of Ham, making it Gods (well Noahs) will to have those in eternal slavery. Alternativly God created man several times before he got it right.

But notice you reject god because you think he is immoral [I disagree fully, though if I thought of him as you do i would agree genocide etc] yet realize there is no such thing as morality or absolute morals. No such thing as murder being wrong or rape etc just what some decide on. That makes your argument baseless against god, as it demands certain things to be absolutely wrong [genocide].

There are no absolute morals. Now, Christianity haven't been very big on it (rather the opposite), but human sacrifice are an example on where murder become virtous, through religion. I'm not knowing any examples, but I'm quite certain that rape has been sanctified in the same way more than once.

Morality on the other hand exists. Even if it is "only" impulses in our brains and an agreement between a group of people. Now such an agreement is quite powerful, since it contains enforcement and the abillity to reject those who doesn't agree. The club is society so to speak. That is a stronger motivator than an arbiter for absolute moralities.

[Kadagar_AV]

Rhyf,


TR, can you respect a world view where morals are not absolute?

Can you also respect a world view looking at the Christian writings, thinking they are horribly amoral?

On rape:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
“The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.” – Judges 21:10-24
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“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” – Numbers 31:7-18
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“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.” - Deuteronomy 20:10-14
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“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” - Deuteronomy 22:28-29
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“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.” - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
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“Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
“Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” - 2 Samuel 12:11-14
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“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”- Deuteronomy 21:10-14
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“They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.” Judges 5:30
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.” - Exodus 21:7-11
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“Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. - Zechariah 14:1-2

On slavery:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” - Leviticus 25:44-46
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“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.” - Exodus 21:2-6
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“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. - Exodus 21:7-11
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“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” - Exodus 21:20-21
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“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.” - Ephesians 6:5
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“Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.” - 1 Timothy 6:1-2
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“The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” - Luke 12:47-48
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“Let as many slaves as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.” – 1 Timothy 6:1
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“Exhort slaves to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.” – Titus 2:9-10
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“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.” – 1 Peter 2:18

I took the examples from a webpage that also held this wonderful little tidbit of thinking:

"Here’s a clue that should be obvious to anyone with an IQ over 70: If you have to spend any time explaining why the horrible stuff stated in plain and clear terms in your holy book is wrong by re-explaining it in complicated and enigmatic ways before you can get to the ‘good stuff,’ your holy book needs to be scrapped because, in the wrong hands, it can be lethal. It often is."




EDIT: PVC, I actually stopped drinking completely for the time being... After a otherwise great summer I can use my liver to check my pulse, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Am soon moving back to the alps again, will be tricky there. Oh well, at least SFTS will be happy being able to condescend me for being ski instructor again ;)

[Brenus]

C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
So, "Total Realism", your Monotheistic moral, you can keep it.
And Hitler was a Christian as he was baptised. He never said he wasn't. His soldiers were it on their buckles (God is with Us), and swear an oath to him (difficult for atheists). And, funny enough, even if he wasn't not, his soldiers who executed his orders were (can't blame the Jews on this one).

[Ronin]

C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
So, "Total Realism", your Monotheistic moral, you can keep it.
And Hitler was a Christian as he was baptised. He never said he wasn't. His soldiers were it on their buckles (God is with Us), and swear an oath to him (difficult for atheists). And, funny enough, even if he wasn't not, his soldiers who executed his orders were (can't blame the Jews on this one).

where I´m from we have a name for people that hear voices telling them to kill people...

and the "Hitler was a atheist!!!" is an usual straw man argument the religious people try to bring up in arguments with atheists....it's false and this is easily provable.
but even if he was an atheist, this would only be a "mirror" for religious atrocity if his crimes had been done in the name of atheism, like so many have done for religion over the years.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.

I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...

I feel old.

Also - yes I think all converts to any religion take a while to mellow and appreciate that not everybody wants to hear about their religion all the time.

[HoreTore]

I feel old.

Also - yes I think all converts to any religion take a while to mellow and appreciate that not everybody wants to hear about their religion all the time.

That's true of most things people find to give their lives meaning, though. Religion, politics, a new hobby, job or relationship etc. We have a tendency to go all fanatical in the beginning.

[Ironside]

C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?

To be fair, that story can be red as rejecting the notion of human sacrifices.

It still counts as evil, just not Evil.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's true of most things people find to give their lives meaning, though. Religion, politics, a new hobby, job or relationship etc. We have a tendency to go all fanatical in the beginning.

Oh, no doubt, but my God is what gives my life meaning (lacking a wife etc.), I have to remember he's awesome, but not "AWESOME!"

[Kadagar_AV]

Oh, no doubt, but my God is what gives my life meaning (lacking a wife etc.), I have to remember he's awesome, but not "AWESOME!"

There we go, you just need a hobby.

"Skiing saved me from God"

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There we go, you just need a hobby.

"Skiing saved me from God"

I can already fence, ride, shoot a bow, a rifle, and play Chess.

They all seem lifeless and boring these last few years.

Before you ask - no I'm not that good at Chess, but I'm a fair shot and a reasonable horseman.

[Kadagar_AV]

I can already fence, ride, shoot a bow, a rifle, and play Chess.

They all seem lifeless and boring these last few years.

Before you ask - no I'm not that good at Chess, but I'm a fair shot and a reasonable horseman.

So, we need to get you off the girlie activities and into manly stuff, then...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, we need to get you off the girlie activities and into manly stuff, then...

You mean like knife throwing?

Or are we talking really manly... axe throwing?

[Kadagar_AV]

You mean like knife throwing?

Or are we talking really manly... axe throwing?

Just joking, those activities actually seem very well rounded, and generally part of a classic education. However, if you look at it, there is no big adrenaline kicks in any of them... So IF you are actually tired of it, why don't you do something with an element of danger in it (horse riding seems like the most "dangerous" thing on that list).

Throwing yourself out of a plane,as an example, is bound to take some time before it gets boring.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Just joking, those activities actually seem very well rounded, and generally part of a classic education. However, if you look at it, there is no big adrenaline kicks in any of them... So IF you are actually tired of it, why don't you do something with an element of danger in it (horse riding seems like the most "dangerous" thing on that list).

Throwing yourself out of a plane,as an example, is bound to take some time before it gets boring.

Various things have stopped or deterred me from all three.

The fencing - bad ankle, I can't bounce on it and damage to my back hip has taken a lot of the explosive power out of my lunge, my bladework on foil is limited by the difficulties with footwork

Horseriding - I'm allergic to the mites in the hay and also to a lesser extent in the horses coats - so anti-hystermines are essential now, which puts a damper on just enjoying it.

Shooting - bad eyes, need new glasses.

That last one I can actually fix, and I'm working on general fitness to try to improve the hip and ankle so I can maybe fence recreationally.

Oh, yeah, I'm also a strong swimmer (looking for a pool in Exeter right now to get back into that) and I can handle a boat.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm passably good (or at least unembarrassing) at quite a few things.

Skiing has actually always appealed, but that's courting death a bit too much - between the dodgy depth perception, the lopsidedness, and the bad ankle I'm pretty sure I'd fall off the mountain rather than whiz down it.

You know what gets to me though - climbing is a real in thing right now, especially among young women, and it has always engendered crippling terror in me.

That really gets to me, it really does.

[Rhyfelwyr]

PVC you sound like you are 75, I thought I was bad!

Having said that I'm still having to kneel as I type this (gah!).

But yeah, I think you guys might be onto something, can't say anything else gives my life meaning besides God.

Only hobby I've got is lifting, which I can't do right now. Although at least there is some adrenaline-inducing danger in my life, that comes from walking up my street.

[Kadagar_AV]

Various things have stopped or deterred me from all three.

The fencing - bad ankle, I can't bounce on it and damage to my back hip has taken a lot of the explosive power out of my lunge, my bladework on foil is limited by the difficulties with footwork

Horseriding - I'm allergic to the mites in the hay and also to a lesser extent in the horses coats - so anti-hystermines are essential now, which puts a damper on just enjoying it.

Shooting - bad eyes, need new glasses.

That last one I can actually fix, and I'm working on general fitness to try to improve the hip and ankle so I can maybe fence recreationally.

Oh, yeah, I'm also a strong swimmer (looking for a pool in Exeter right now to get back into that) and I can handle a boat.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm passably good (or at least unembarrassing) at quite a few things.

Skiing has actually always appealed, but that's courting death a bit too much - between the dodgy depth perception, the lopsidedness, and the bad ankle I'm pretty sure I'd fall off the mountain rather than whiz down it.

You know what gets to me though - climbing is a real in thing right now, especially among young women, and it has always engendered crippling terror in me.

That really gets to me, it really does.

So give it a shot!

Climbing is great, specially since you REALLY can climb things on your own level these days. Back when I started there were no cool indoor training halls and stuff... Just a mountain and if my dad had his back turned a good rope.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So give it a shot!

Climbing is great, specially since you REALLY can climb things on your own level these days. Back when I started there were no cool indoor training halls and stuff... Just a mountain and if my dad had his back turned a good rope.

I gave it a shot several times as a teenager, when I say "crippling fear" I bloody well mean it.

I once had to be almost pried off the training wall.

Can't afford those fancy new training halls anyway.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Christians don't kill children.

Funny you should say that...

Kathy Stuart
So she takes this little bit of arsenic. But apparently it was enough to make her violently ill, and for a week, every time she ate, she vomited. But it wasn't enough to make her think that she was now going to die.

Ira Glass
So she never goes to the priest. Figuring out the proper dosage, she testifies later, is just a vexing problem that she doesn't know how to solve. And she gives up that plan, which brings her to a much more disturbing plan. She decides to do something that, to us, to our modern sensibility, is so much worse than killing yourself. From our point of view, she decides to do one of the worst things a person could possibly do.

Kathy Stuart
She decides, I'm going to murder a child.

Ira Glass
That's right. She's going to murder a child to help herself get into Heaven. And incredibly, Kathy Stuart says this was a common strategy around that time for people who wanted to kill themselves. She came across a case like this and then went looking for others like it. And now she has found around 300, most of them women.

Kathy Stuart
These people don't want to go to Hell. So the option that they choose is to commit a capital crime. Immediately upon committing the crime, they run to the court. They confess what they have done, and they essentially demand their own execution.

Ira Glass
So they demand execution knowing that before they go to the gallows, they will have a chance to confess. And if they're truly repentant, they'll go to Heaven. And why kill a child?

Kathy Stuart
They kill a child because the child is seen as being in a state of innocence. So you might possibly be doing the child a favor, because the child will also go to Heaven. You will go to Heaven. It's kind of a win-win situation. There's a happy ending for all.

CR

[Kadagar_AV]

Funny you should say that...



CR

Yes CR, but they can't have been REAL Christians, because real Christians don't murder children.



This goes back to what I wrote about the Bible though.... The problem isn't that there isn't good stuff in it, there is. The problem is that you need quite some mental wriggling to skip by the less pleasant episodes of the Bible. And when writing a holy book, you should bear in mind that it WILL in the end be interpreted by some guy, living in a basement, eating road kills, having the Bible and Guns & Ammo as only literature around.



PVC, afraid of heights or was it something else? How about mountainbiking?

[Rhyfelwyr]

And when writing a holy book, you should bear in mind that it WILL in the end be interpreted by some guy, living in a basement, eating road kills, having the Bible and Guns & Ammo as only literature around.

Looks like I have an online stalker...

[Ironside]

Funny you should say that...

CR

Thought about that, but couldn't find any sources.

Another example is when adultery (and its out of wedlock child) was brutally punished in public (as the rules of the OT demands), peaking in the late seventeenth century in Sweden. That's the origin for the lesser punishments for mothers doing infanticide, at least here.

[total relism]

My oh my...

I don't think much progress will be made here.

I agree, until you realize what the Op is about, no progress can be made.

I think you missed the point, my post says nothing in regard to the OP. Please be mindful that the OP is not the benchmark for a discussion. It merely gets the ball rolling. Imagine living a life where you had to adhere to the same style of thinking for 2000 years. Gah, I shudder at the thought. Exactly what you are doing with every post, alluding to the OP.

Also, I'm pretty sure we had an excellent discussion about pubic hair on a thread about Nazi's. Goes to show the dynamic nature of the Backroom.

I am sorry, I figured it was a response to op. Many have missed what I am saying in op, and understood it as what your seemed response was. I guess I have diffident opinions on what op should be, I thought discussion should be based on op. Than if someone want new discussion, they should start new thread. Imagine living in a time were morality has no base to stand on, such as atheistic morality. There is no god, yet we have to follow certain rules. Dont rape, dont kill, dont steal etc why follow any of them? because other evolved animals,evolved dirt that have no right to control me decide I should. But of course its ok to kill millions of innocent babies through abortion, ancient child sacrifice anyone?. But also, the government tells me one morality, Hollywood another,media another,teachers another, parents another,church another. Who is right? I say no one. why listen to random chemical reactions [peoples brains. evolved dirt] tell me what is "right" and "wrong". No I agree with jefery dahmer on this one.

"if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself".
Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within

Imagine that world.

You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!

Because that is how debates work.

Is it not, so you have not been responding to op on purpose?. That exspalins alot.That is all I care to talk on, I dont care what morals or reasons for morals atheist have. I only care to show how inconstant,.baseless,illogical it is, for them to have morals.

I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.

What foundation than? survival of the fittest? Than you cannot reject hitlers morality,darwins, or my own favorite.

You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out,
why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?.

Hitler was going for survival of fittest, killing off weaker races people. He was helping evolution and survival of the fittest. If you do no harm to others, than you allow weak to survive.

total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.

Kadagar - go have a beer and don't worry about it. Aftr the beer, it may make more sense.

I never claimed to be original. this has been pointed out for decades in america in debate etc. If it goes back to plato, than I guess much longer.

Of course it's a rubbish argument. I just tried to meet the OP on a more level playing field.

The argument is not rubbish at all, you have misunderstood it, so no surprise you see it as rubbish. My playing field is the point I made the thread on my OP. You want to create a new field [are atheist moral, why do they have morals etc] create a new field [thread]. As other posters are saying, you have missed the point.

[HoreTore]

Children are killed all over the world. Christians make up a hefty percentage of the world. Thus, it's unaviodable that christians also kill children.

Saying that christians kill children because of their religion, however, is quite a stretch. Even the example above should probably be explained by mental disorders. That the killer was christian gave the murder a christian flavour, but that does not equal christianity being the cause of the murder.

Anyhoo, back to the interesting stuff: what gives life meaning? I find that drinking gives life plenty of meaning. Because of this saturday, I have a forehead covered in blood and cuts with a bump worthy of Donald Duck. I can't wait for the lunchtime storytelling today!

Now that's meaningful.

[total relism]

I'm not going to read TR's walls of copypasta, but from what I can gather...

I think Kadagar is talking more on the practical side - that atheists generally are moral people. Whereas TR is trying to say that in doing so atheists are being logically inconsistent, as in his own less eloquent fashion he is referring to your argument that absolute morals can't exist without a universial arbiter ie God.

Although TR is frustrated because he thinks Kadagar can't see this (he may or may not), the real problem is that TR is not open to the idea of any other concepts of morality - for example that morals might not be absolute, and may just be the result of evolution. He might not regard such an idea of morality as meaningful, but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid (if not correct) explanation.

Otherwise everyone will continue to be at cross purposes.



This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.

I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...

Thank you for first part, that hits it perfect. As I said first line, I am not saying that atheist are not moral or have no morals, I am saying that if they claim there are such things as moral or "right" and "wrong" killing is "bad" rape is "bad" etc They are being inconstant with atheism. They have no right to say what hitler did was "bad". I am fully aware that some believe morals are the result of evolution, that is what have my post have been on. That is what I have been using showing that when they claim absolute morals, something is "wrong" rape,murder etc they are being inconstant. For example.

I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.

You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,

But as atheist why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.

and my Op spells out atheistic morality.

I do not need to accept atheistic morality, I never would. Just because you think I should because others do is a moral argument itself,baseless.But it shows perfectly that the only morals atheist can have is based on majority opinion. So hitler was morally correct in germany in the early 1940's. That was the majority opinion, so therefore correct. Why would I ever accept, some random chemicals evolve dirt, telling me what I can and cant do. the government tells me one morality, Hollywood another,media another,teachers another, parents another,church another. Who is right? I say no one. why listen to random chemical reactions [peoples brains. evolved dirt] tell me what is "right" and "wrong". No I agree with jefery dahmer on this one.

"if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself".
Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within

So if I decide that murdering millions of innocent children [abortion] is ok than we can. Or caging woman in my basement forcing them to have sex with me is also ok if I like it.


Hitler
I have no idea what your saying here, showing clearly you did not read about hitler, what I said was, as hitlers quotes show, he was following evolution, it was because atheism/evolution he did what he did. No athist has any right to say what he did was wrong. After all in germany in 1940's as you said
"but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid" so therefore it must be accepted by your own grounds. Showing the absurdity of atheistic morality based on majority opinion, just what you admitted to and are proposing.

I like your asumtions on my "new" faith or debating online. I assure you ask my name on twc all the atheist will know me. I have debated years over there, many thread, in fact have no less than 4 other debate thread going on outside of the org right now. The fact you misunderstand me and guess these things, makes me think you jump the gun a little pit.

Great granny Ruth (to David) was a Moabite and it's less than 10 generations in between. Jesus is supposed to be a decendant from David. Moab was the child/grandchild of Lot. Since there's quite a few generations between and God is lacking a bit of people (due to wiping them out from time to time) it's mostly for fun.



Yes, and the interpretations on this aren't absolute. That is a bit of problem when talking about moral absolutes.



The atheist book you mentioned I've read is called the Bible. I'm guessing you're familiar with that one. Notions of genocide: The flood, (duh), Sodom and Gomorra, active threat (plague) on the Jews for deviation of faith (Jews saved by active murder showing devotion to God) and the following retaliation which Moses ups (to cultural genocide, only virgins left) from what the original commanders did (and they were quite brutal).



Deut 23:1 is specific in that the punishment are on the children and their decendants and not the sinning parents. God took a very long time to forgive the original sin so it's not like it's a unique occurence. Besides, that's a quite suspect interpretation (as in: don't like the original one, let's make up one that sounds better, but is much less based on what's written). Unless there was some bizarre idea that is your parents sinned, you're immune to that sin (say that your father was a thief leads to that you can steal without any problem), there's no need to specify that it only applies if they continue the sins of thier ancestors.

The 10 generations are a nice show that the person isn't familiar to population demographics. The 2 parents, 4 grandparents, etc, etc. gives 2^10-1=1023 couples that might have cheated. With 1% cheating ratio (that's a very low count), only about 3 out of 100.000 fullfills that demand.



The Bible never states the original opinion of the Pharao. Besides, even with this interpretation, God still actively searches a confrontation which will result in the punishment of the Egyptians. That is cruel and a show off display of destructive powers.



The origin of species came out 1859, the US civil war started 1861 (a definite stop to slave import in the US). No, slavery was not popular because of the idea of evolution. Examples of justifications of slavery were that they were decendants of Ham, making it Gods (well Noahs) will to have those in eternal slavery. Alternativly God created man several times before he got it right.



There are no absolute morals. Now, Christianity haven't been very big on it (rather the opposite), but human sacrifice are an example on where murder become virtous, through religion. I'm not knowing any examples, but I'm quite certain that rape has been sanctified in the same way more than once.

Morality on the other hand exists. Even if it is "only" impulses in our brains and an agreement between a group of people. Now such an agreement is quite powerful, since it contains enforcement and the abillity to reject those who doesn't agree. The club is society so to speak. That is a stronger motivator than an arbiter for absolute moralities.

First part I have no idea what your saying, why do you believe that, what ever your trying to say is a problem for the bible?. Does it have to do with the 10 generations? moabites cant enter?

Moabites cant enter assembly of god?
Ruth was moabite book of ruth.

God loves the foreign resident and Israel is commanded to do the same
Deuteronomy 10.18-19
It is not based on ethnicity,but religion. moab was cananite.


I disagree fully, homosexuality is clearly wrong, according to the bible.


lol nice, I was just saying all the athiet usually bring up in order the ones you did. I agree though god judges, please bring all these up with genocide/plagues. You truly are bringing up all my favs, though the golden calf is very hard to understand. But the claims of genocide are false, and the circumstances around these show them not to be evil, but loving. Sounds crazy, wait for post. You just need to read entire bible. In fact I would reject a god that did not do what he did., time will show. I guess i will have to do a major objections to bible as I did on twc, plagues,conquest of canon,how can god send people to hell etc. But great topic's, now im all existed.


I am not seeing it here at all, also this does not mean they cant worship etc, they just cant go in temple [few could] only levites could.
[a]No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord.
v1 23

This has to do with no defects etc, it is teaching of sinless of messiah, without defect, as all temple worship was.
God forgives sin right away all the time, he did forgive adam and eve, he promised messiah right there gen 3.15. It took awhile for the messiah to carry out the full forgiveness. Notice god provided there coverings after gen 3.21. But are you claiming than no one was forgiven in OT?.
I am sorry but had you read the bible, you would now that it is clearly if the child follows in sins of father.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20

A key to understanding this business is a concept called vicarious punishment that is found in the law codes of the ANE. Greenberg [Chr.SPPS, 295] offers these examples:

A creditor who has maltreated the distrained sin of his debtor that he dies, must lose his own son. If a man struck the pregnant daughter of another so that she miscarried and died, his own daughter must be put to death. A seducer must deliver his wife to the seduced girl's father for prostitution. In another class are penalties which involve the substitution of a dependent for the offerer -- the Hittite laws compelling a slayer to deliver so many persons to the kinsmen of the slain, or prescribing that a man who has pushed another into a fire must give over his son...
Now it is precisely this kind of punishment, which was prescribed in every law code in the Near East, that Deut. 24:16 is intended to forbid. The verse is not a universal motto, but a time-specific law intended as a direct counter to the practices listed above. "The proper understanding of this requires...that it be recognized as a judicial provision, not a theological dictum." [Chr.SPPS, 296, 298]
This does not mean sins of a father will not effect his children.


You claim to have read bible, but I gota say, your theology and claims, fit the bill of a atheist book not the bible.

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
exodus 8.15
31 and the Lord did what Moses asked. The flies left Pharaoh and his officials and his people; not a fly remained. 32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
exodus 8.31
7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go
evodus 9.7
Ex 9:11-12 “And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and we are also told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (4 times). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. There was no hope of convincing or converting Pharaoh so his heart would be hardened by God (6 times, 10 times in all). God did not allow him to change his mind and was given no room to do anything else but what his own sinful heart dictated.

Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...1&article=1205



God uses pharaohs heart, to show egypt and pharaoh that he was the one true god, that the nile,cows,flies etc were not gods, but he alone. It worked to, as many egptians left and joined isreal.

"Then the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children. A mixed multitude went up with them also."
exodus 12 37-38.

they were grafted into isreal.



I have no idea were you get this from? eternal slavery idea. Or the idea god created men at diffident times. Please with your great knowledge of bible you have shown, provide evidence from bible.



I have no idea what your saying, first you claim there are no moral absolutes, I have to ask are you absolutely sure?
than if there are no moral absolutes, how can you say child sacrifice is wrong?. Or it is ok to kill them?. Than something about rape being ok to the bible? The bible says rape is oviusly wrong, could be punished with death in OT.

Than claim morality does exist, do you not see how many times you contradict yourself in a few sentences?. So you cant object to god as being bad, also please bring your thoughts over here. I just put in long response to this same claim on majority opinion and morality.
well above a few posts.

[HoreTore]

I just love how "atheism" is given a set of attributes, and the notion that one "has to do x" because of "atheist beliefs"(now that's a contradicting term!).

[Kadagar_AV]

TR, if you spent as much time taking in what people answer you, as you do surfing christian webpages, I think you would reach much further mentally.


You seem to repeat your own line of thinking no matter what arguments you are met by, that is what I meant when I wrote that I see no chance for progress here.

There are two sides of a debate. You are supposed to make your case, you do a great job at that BTW mate. However, you are also supposed to really try and understand what the people around you say and why.

I am afraid that your way of arguing comes off as rather childish at this point. Kind of like a child with a megaphone, putting his hands to his ears going "lalala" while catching his breath between his tirades.

[total relism]

I feel old.

Also - yes I think all converts to any religion take a while to mellow and appreciate that not everybody wants to hear about their religion all the time.

why do people think I am new? I now people dont like what I say, wait till I do creation vs evolution. But you guys have been pretty nice,mature etc compared to most I debate with. When people hate me dont want to hear what I am saying, I think I am on to something good.

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
john 15 18-19

also what makes you think christian want to hear your opinion on new christian converts?

where I´m from we have a name for people that hear voices telling them to kill people...

and the "Hitler was a atheist!!!" is an usual straw man argument the religious people try to bring up in arguments with atheists....it's false and this is easily provable.
but even if he was an atheist, this would only be a "mirror" for religious atrocity if his crimes had been done in the name of atheism, like so many have done for religion over the years.

Please prove, read this very post hitler says he was atheist, no one said atheist must be like hitler, just they cant say what he did was "wrong".


‘Crimes of religion’?
Many atheists point to the Crusades, Inquisition and witch hunts to argue that Christianity is an evil religion. D’Souza takes on these allegations one by one. He argues that the Muslims were the aggressors; conquering the previously predominately Christian Middle East. They went on to conquer parts of Africa, Asia, part of Italy and most of Spain. All the while, they forced conversions at sword-point. Finally, more than two hundred years later Christians attempted to take back the land that was conquered by the Muslims. The First Crusade was a success, resulting in Jerusalem being in Christian possession for nearly a century. Subsequent crusades failed, but without the crusades, D’Souza argues
‘Western Civilization might have been completely overrun by the forces of Islam … The Christians fought to defend themselves from foreign conquest, while the Muslims fought to continue conquering Christian lands’
(p. 206).

Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries.
As for the Inquisition, much of the modern stereotype was largely made up by Spain’s political enemies, and later by anti-Christians. The Inquisition only had authority over professing Christians, and the Inquisition trials were often fairer and more lenient than their secular counterparts. Often the only penalty given was some sort of penance such as fasting. Over a period of 350 years, historians such as Henry Kamen15 estimate only between 1,500 and 4,000 people were executed for heresy.
The Salem witch trials constitute the best-known example of religiously motivated violence. However, fewer than 25 people were killed in the trials, falling far short of the ‘perhaps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions’ (p. 207) that the late antitheist Carl Sagan wrote about.
Having shown that Christianity’s ‘religious crimes’ are far less horrendous than atheists would argue; he goes on to show that atheism, not religion, is responsible for mass murders. In fact, ‘atheist regimes have in a single century murdered more than one hundred million people’ (p. 214). Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries. However, while it can easily be shown that crimes committed in the name of Christianity are not sanctioned by its teaching, the bloodbaths of the atheist regimes are consistent with an atheist, evolutionary outlook. Indeed, atheists have no moral basis to say that anything is right or wrong
#
#
#
the Salem which trial was stopped by 2 priest that said what they were doing was unbiblical
http://tektonics.org/qt/spaninq.html inquisitions


how did the Muslims get into Israel anyways?
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009...rspective.html

Muslim Turks made passage to holy lands for Christians very dangerous years before crusade.


atheist governments killings morality etc
77 million in Communist China, 62 million in the Soviet Gulag State, 21 million non-battle killings by the Nazis, 2 million murdered in the Khmer Rouge killing fields (see also Rummel, R.J., Death by Government, New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1994).



‘The five major religions of the world, in order of their appearance on the scene, are Hinduism, traditional Chinese folk religion, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. These five religions have approximately 4.85 billion adherents, representing an estimated 71.3 percent of the world’s population in 2007, and they have been around for a collective 11,600 years. During the vast majority of those 116 [collective] centuries, the world has not been in any danger of extinction from weapons of any kind, nor has the human race been in serious danger of dying out from pollution, global warming, overpopulation, or anything else. …
‘Modern science has only been around for the last 350 years, if we date the scientific method back to the man known as the Father of Science, Galileo Galilei. One could push the date back considerably, if one wished, to Aristotle and Archimedes, or forward to Newton and the Age of Enlightenment, but regardless, the dire threat to Mankind described by [“New Atheist” Sam] Harris only dates back to the middle of the twentieth century. In the last sixty years, science has produced a veritable witches’ brew of potential dangers to the human race, ranging from atom-shattering, explosive devices to lethal genetic modifications, designer diseases, large quantities of radioactive waste and even, supposedly, the accidental production of mini black holes and strangelets through particle collider experiments.
‘So, in only 3 percent of the time that religion has been on the scene, science has managed to produce multiple threats to continued human existence. Moreover, the quantity and lethal quality of those threats appear to be accelerating, as the bulk of them have appeared in the most recent sixth of the scientific era.2

C'mom, guys: We speak of the morality of a God asking a father to kill his son. And I still don't know who is the worst: The God asking or the father ready to do it?
So, "Total Realism", your Monotheistic moral, you can keep it.
And Hitler was a Christian as he was baptised. He never said he wasn't. His soldiers were it on their buckles (God is with Us), and swear an oath to him (difficult for atheists). And, funny enough, even if he wasn't not, his soldiers who executed his orders were (can't blame the Jews on this one).

Abraham? you do realize both Abraham and god new his son was not going to be sacrafised correct? oh the atheist did not tell you that one. Question as athsit, on what grounds would you say child sacrifice is wrong?.
Hitler, not sure if your aware, hitler hated christianity, as did all nazies, they were not compatible as Hitler said. So neither hitler or his men were christian. swearing oath to hitler? what does that have to do with being christian? Please provide evidence for god is with us on his belt buckle. i am sure you are telling truth on this one, no i am just kidding.

look who blames stuff on the jew, hitler blames christian on the jew.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

13th December, 1941, midnight:



Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold it ." (p 278)

From "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.


Hitler was all about evolution, atheism,natural selection, nature's law.

“ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003

“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution
then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003

“if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one. Because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile.”
Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p263 2003

Hitler--> "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness....”(A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 142-143)


As I pointed out before with darwin quotes my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong" in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,

That's true of most things people find to give their lives meaning, though. Religion, politics, a new hobby, job or relationship etc. We have a tendency to go all fanatical in the beginning.

why do people think I am new? I now people dont like what I say, wait till I do creation vs evolution. But you guys have been pretty nice,mature etc compared to most I debate with. When people hate me dont want to hear what I am saying, I think I am on to something good.

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
john 15 18-19