Gaming laptop

[SwordsMaster]

Some of you might remember I was looking for some gaming laptop suggestions ahead of a likely trip to asia where I might take advantage of some lower prices... Well, that didn't happen.

So now, a year later, and with my laptop refusing to let me play Fall of the Samurai in any way I might enjoy doing so, it's time.

I'm not sure what new developments there have been in GPU technology in the past year, and I want to get in before Windows 8 brings us into the next down-spiral of the Microsoft OS cycle.

My requirements: it has to be portable. Preferably under 17'.
Obviously would prefer best bang for soon-to-be-useless euros.

Thanks for the help!

[Lemur]

Low-end solution: AMD Fusion notebook (these little guys have a genuine GPU cooked into the CPU, so they can game, surprisingly)

High-end solution: Sager

[SwordsMaster]

Quick and to the point, Lemur-san. I like the way you operate. Thank you

[SwordsMaster]

Wow, with the nvidia 680 the sager puts me well over the 2k USD... Is the difference in performance worth the 500$? Did anyone give it a bash?

Also, what would be the difference between Sager and the likes of Alienware (aside from the bling factor)? I had considered the M14x, but I'm aware of 'paying for the brand' and simply am interested in performance rather than whether i have a glowing alien face on my laptop.

Stuck. Need help. Suggestions?

Pretty much the same price:
MSI:

GT60 0NE-220US Weight 7.7 lbs

• Intel® Core™ i7-3610QM Processor • Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium 64bit • 15.6" Full HD Anti-reflective Display (16:9; 1920 x 1080) • NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 680M discrete graphics (DDR5 4GB VRAM) • Accelerated performance with MSI TDE Technology • Full-color programmable backlit keyboard by SteelSeries • Killer Game Networking • MSI Cooler Boost Technology • Dynaudio Premium Sound Speakers with THX TruStudio PRO™ • 750GB(7200RPM) • 12GB DDR3 1600MHz system memory • DVD Super Multi • USB 3.0 for high speed data transfer • HDMI 1.4 (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) output • Built-in 720p HD webcam • Gold flashed audio jack ports with amplifier • 802.11 b/g/ n Wireless LAN with Bluetooth

Or Sager:

Display	15.6" Full HD LED-Backlit Display with Matte Finished Surface (1920 x 1080) [$30.00]
Video & Graphics Card	Nvidia GeForce GTX 680M GPU with 4GB GDDR5 Video Memory [$445.00]
CPU Processor	3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3720QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.60GHz) [$160.00]
Thermal Compound	IC Diamond Thermal Compound - CPU + GPU [$35.00]
Operating System	Genuine MS Windows® 7 Home Premium 32/64-Bit Edition( 64-Bit Preloaded )
Memory	16GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz - 4 X 4GB
Primary Hard Disk Drive	500GB 7200rpm SATA Hybrid Hard Drive with 4GB SSD
mSATA SSD Drive — For Intel Smart Response Technology	None
Optical Drive Bay — Optical Drive or Hard Disk Drive in Optical Drive Bay with Caddy case	8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Software
Wireless Network Card	Internal 802.11 B+G+N Wireless LAN + Bluetooth Combo Module
Primary Battery	Smart Li-ION Battery Pack
Integrated Security Device	Fingerprint Reader

Weight: 6.83 LBs with Battery Pack

[Lemur]

Wow, with the nvidia 680 the sager puts me well over the 2k USD... Is the difference in performance worth the 500$? Did anyone give it a bash?

Here's a relatively recent benchmark of mobile GPU parts. Taking a casual gander, the sweet spot on the price/performance scale seems to be the AMD 7950M.

Also, what would be the difference between Sager and the likes of Alienware

Sager made their name as a European gaming laptop specialist; they've only been in the US market for a year or so. Alienware made their name with gaming desktops, and were acquired by Dell. Their M14x has gotten stellar reviews, but you need to be careful; the older version of the M14x got middling reviews. You would want to make certain you were purchasing the newer build.

The MSI laptop you specified is very high-end, about the only bling-bling part it doesn't have is a big SSD. Can't find any reviews.

If you can find it for a price you tolerate, I can't see a problem. No experience with the build quality of MSI notebooks, so I can't comment on that.

[SwordsMaster]

Thanks, Lemur,

My criteria have been at least 500gb at 7200rpm, at least 16Gb RAM, 15.6' screen and a GPU as fast as possible. SSDs I have no experience with, and am not sure how much they would affect performance...

Also trying to keep it under 7 or so lb is a bit of a challenge, even with the smaller screen!

My current gaming machine is an MSI, pretty sturdy, but it's a 17' so it's a big frame. Very heavy though.

Had a look at the M14x, the GPU does well in the mid ranges, but nothing high-end, since this is going to be a significant chink of cash, and I don't intend to buy a new gaming rig for 5 years or so I would rather future-proof a little and go for something more high-end in the RAM/GPU department.

There are some really exceptional machines out there, but they are 17.3' in size which is a bit much to carry around, like the M17x, and also very heavy. Most 'magazine' sites focus their reviews on 'entertainment system' type machines (Sony Vaio I'm looking at you), but those afford little wiggle room for customisation.

Decisions, decisions...

[Lemur]

I would stick to a 15"–14" screen for mobile gaming. I could explain why, but your shoulder and the relative power of mobile GPUs should let you sort it out for yourself.

SSDs replace HDs, and they are blazing fast. They are also crazy expensive. If you're trying to build a machine on a reasonable budget, you should probably ignore them.

Here's a site that allows you to custom-build a nice 15.6" gaming laptop. As you say, a lot of laptop press and attention goes to "media" machines, which are an Abomination Against God.

[SwordsMaster]

Nice site! Unfortunately doesn't ship to Europe, and works out similar to Sager price-wise. I think 14' is probably a little too small, those TW maps need to be displayed fully!

[Lemur]

I just noticed you mentioned "future-proofing" your laptop. This is a dangerous concept that usually leads to a high cash outlay.

I would recommend rather that you look for the "sweet spot," in other words, the not-quite-bleeding-edge stuff that gives, say 80%–90% of the performance of the big-ticket parts, at a much more reasonable price. So for example, I would choose the Nvidia 670 or the AMD 7950M over the absolute top-end parts. Likewise, I would look carefully at the i7-3720QM (2.6 ghz) over the scary-pricey i7-3920XM (2.9 ghz). You get most of the performance at a substantially reduced cost.

There will always be a bigger, better, faster thing. Best to get the second-tier parts in a form factor you can live with.

(Then again, I'm still rocking an overclocked Core2Duo in my main gaming rig, so I'm obviously a miser.)

[SwordsMaster]

I just noticed you mentioned "future-proofing" your laptop. This is a dangerous concept that usually leads to a high cash outlay.

I would recommend rather that you look for the "sweet spot," in other words, the not-quite-bleeding-edge stuff that gives, say 80%–90% of the performance of the big-ticket parts, at a much more reasonable price. So for example, I would choose the Nvidia 670 or the AMD 7950M over the absolute top-end parts. Likewise, I would look carefully at the i7-3720QM (2.6 ghz) over the scary-pricey i7-3920XM (2.9 ghz). You get most of the performance at a substantially reduced cost.

There will always be a bigger, better, faster thing. Best to get the second-tier parts in a form factor you can live with.

True dat. Already downgraded from 3ghz options, no point really, it's hardly going to be the bottleneck... However RAM and GPU are my concerns. You're likely right about the 670M. Pity the SLI cards are out of the question for a 15' rig...

Question: the Radeon HD 7970M is cheaper than the Nvidia 675M but from the reviews it seems like performance should be very similar... Not sure what to think,

(Then again, I'm still rocking an overclocked Core2Duo in my main gaming rig, so I'm obviously a miser.)

So am I! However, the rocking is getting a stutter even in the smaller Civ5 end game maps, and running any TW past NTW on anything past medium settings is quite slow and painful.

[Lemur]

Question: the Radeon HD 7970M is cheaper than the Nvidia 675M but from the reviews it seems like performance should be very similar... Not sure what to think

That's exactly the sort of thing to look for, IMHO. If a part is giving similar results, and it's cheaper, and it's from a reputable company ... that's the gear I want.

A 15" laptop with a 7950M is going to be a valid gaming machine for years. Here's a trick: compare the specs/framerates of a part to the current crop of gaming consoles. A lot of games are going to be built with the Xbox 360 and/or Playstation 3 in mind. If your part can play those games, it's going to do okay for a longish while.

[Beskar]

Windows 8 is coming out in October too. So if you can wait a couple of months, you can probably end up with the latest OS thrown into the mix as well.

I would avoid Sony Vaio's like the plague. When I had one, I was burnt (quite literally) from it, plus constant issues. This was a few years ago though and they gave me a complete refund. Which was great as I overpaid for it as well.

[SwordsMaster]

Windows 8 is coming out in October too. So if you can wait a couple of months, you can probably end up with the latest OS thrown into the mix as well.

I would avoid Sony Vaio's like the plague. When I had one, I was burnt (quite literally) from it, plus constant issues. This was a few years ago though and they gave me a complete refund. Which was great as I overpaid for it as well.

Oh, but I want to avoid Win8 as much as possible. I trust paradox to make less buggy software than 1st release windows. Plus the reviews I've seen so far are not amazing. I'll stick with win7.

No intention of getting a Vaio, I want a gaming machine, and a wannabe 'home entertainment system' isn't going to cut it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

"Gaming laptops" are pretty much the definition of wasting your time and money. Laptop parts are cut down versions of their desktop counter parts not simply because of price but also because of TDP constraints: laptop cooling is usually not up to the job of handling a i5-2500k CPU for example...

Paying top dollar for the latest top of the line GPU is a sensible investment by comparison, at least that card will retain value two or three years down the line.

Consumer laptops do not. They wear out too quickly, and even modest tech improvements render them obsolete as high end machines fairly quickly too. Expect them to last perhaps 2-3 years before either components start to break down or they are simply outdated. (Business laptops can last longer but only through the magic of depreciation and bunging old kit at those who are lower on the tech totem pole.)

So with that in mind the smart thing to do is buy a reasonable mid range to high end laptop and stick in a SSD. You will have money and options left to be picky about things like screens, a quality headphone or extra batteries. A good SSD (Intel, Samsung) should be reliable enough to survive fairly heavy use and last you a couple of laptop upgrades. Then ditch the laptop later but keep the SSD.

If you do have lots of money to burn you could get yourself a mobile workstation (Dell makes those, for example) but then you should know this: that is not a laptop, just a small-ish desktop with a screen attached which so happens to look a bit like a laptop and has a limited capacity to let you save your work when there's a power outage. Unlike the Sagers, however those machines will last a bit longer and will provide a lot more oomph and probably produce more noise as well.

[SwordsMaster]

Well, TA, It's good to have an opinion, but my life circumstances are such that I need to travel a lot (real travel, with more time in airports than i care to remember), and I like playing videogames. So carrying around a 19' monster is not an option. While I agree gaming laptops are not the most efficient way to spending money, and I definitely do not need the boy-racer bells and whistles the likes of Alienware provide, unless someone can pack a GPU into an ipad and make ipad versions of TW and Max Payne, I dont have much choice.

More constructevely, I'm stuck between these:

1 MSI GT60 0NE-220US Gaming Laptops - $2,093.00
15.6" Full HD (1920x1080) LED Matte Widescreen LCD
nVIDIA GeForce GTX 680M 256bit w/4.0GB GDDR5
Intel® Core™ i7-3610QM (2.3~3.3GHz) w/6M L3 Cache - 4 Cores - 8 Threads
IC Diamond Thermal Compound applied to CPU + GPU
16GB (4x4GB) DDR3/1866 Dual Channel Memory - CL10
750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive
2nd HDD - None
RAID 0 Enabled
Combo Dual Layer SuperMulti DVDRW/CDRW Drive
Internal 7-in-1 Card Reader: SD/SDHC/SDXC/XD/MSPRO/MS/MM
Intel® Centrino® Wireless-N 2230 Wireless Card + Bluetooth 4.0 (Single Band)
Smart Li-ion Battery 9-Cell

And

Display	15.6" Full HD LED-Backlit Display with Matte Finished Surface (1920 x 1080) [$30.00]
Video & Graphics Card	AMD Radeon HD 7970M GPU with 2GB GDDR5 Video Memory [$200.00]
CPU Processor	3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3720QM Processor ( 6MB L3 Cache, 2.60GHz) [$160.00]
Thermal Compound	IC Diamond Thermal Compound - CPU + GPU [$35.00]
Operating System	Genuine MS Windows® 7 Home Premium 32/64-Bit Edition( 64-Bit Preloaded )
Memory	16GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz - 4 X 4GB
Primary Hard Disk Drive	500GB 7200rpm SATA Hybrid Hard Drive with 4GB SSD
mSATA SSD Drive — For Intel Smart Response Technology	None
Optical Drive Bay — Optical Drive or Hard Disk Drive in Optical Drive Bay with Caddy case	8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Software
Wireless Network Card	Internal 802.11 B+G+N Wireless LAN + Bluetooth Combo Module
Primary Battery	Smart Li-ION Battery Pack

The MSI is a tiny bit higher spec than the Sager, but works out about 150USD pricier including shipping. Is it worth it for 250Gb of HD and the 680M instead of the AMD Radeon HD 7970M?
Also, is there a point to RAid?

[Lemur]

The second laptop looks more interesting to me. I've read reviews and benchmarks of those hybrid hard drives, and they're supposed to be wonderful. (Read through some of the user reviews here.)

Sager built their entire rep on gaming laptops, so if forced to choose between them and a traditional manufacturer, I'd choose Sager, just because they will know my issues and concerns, and build/fix accordingly. Gamers know gamers. I would not spend a whole lot extra to get one of their machines, but in a close call? No question.

And of course Tellos has a point, gaming laptops are not optimal ... but sometimes they are necessary.

[SwordsMaster]

The second laptop looks more interesting to me. I've read reviews and benchmarks of those hybrid hard drives, and they're supposed to be wonderful. (Read through some of the user reviews here.)

Sager built their entire rep on gaming laptops, so if forced to choose between them and a traditional manufacturer, I'd choose Sager, just because they will know my issues and concerns, and build/fix accordingly. Gamers know gamers. I would not spend a whole lot extra to get one of their machines, but in a close call? No question.

And of course Tellos has a point, gaming laptops are not optimal ... but sometimes they are necessary.

What's funny about Sager is that, they charge double than anyone else to have the damn thing shipped to Europe! MSI charges 160$, and Sager 310! And in all likelihood they'll go on the same aeroplane...

[Beskar]

You could just buy it from a European reseller.

More information at http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...fo.html#europe

Sager laptops are re-branded Clevo models. There are numerous resellers around Europe so you might be able to find one which has the specifications you are looking for.

[Lemur]

Yup, did a tiny bit of Googling, I believe this is a similar model at a UK reseller. Helpful? Speccing it out with 16 gigs of RAM, the 2.6 ghz i7, the AMD 7970M and a wicked-cool 750 gig hybrid HD, it clocks in at £1,347.00 post-VAT, or $2,111. Does that save you money?

[SwordsMaster]

Thanks Tiaexz, having trouble loading the site...

I had looked at Clevo's site, but I must be really clumsy as I didn't find listed any european resellers... Just stuff about their manufacturing process.

It does indeed! Danke Lemur! I'll let you know how it plays! including delivery it saves about 100$ and I get 250gb extra hybrid HD. You da man.

[Lemur]

Also nice to have it from a UK reseller, especially should you need to invoke the angry gods of Warranty and RMA.

That should be a roaring beast of a gaming laptop. (I am not jealous. I am not jealous. I am not jealous.)

Can we get some unboxing pics?

Oh, and when I specced it, I threw in Windows 7 64 pro, since I figured you would probably want to VPN at some point in your life. That bumped the price a bit.

[SwordsMaster]

And it saves me import tax (25%) which is nothing to sneer at at these prices...

With that money I can get the 680M :D

Is this the HD you had in mind? I didn't think of VPN-ing, but it might be worth the extra 30£. Will place the order today, but arrange to get it on 31st (payday!) - return home from current project!

And will provide pics if I can keep myself from unboxing on the way back from the post office...

And then I will play all the MAX PAYNE IN THE WORLD!!!!

Chassis & Display
Vortex Series: 15.6" Matte Full HD LED Widescreen (1920x1080)

Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™i7 Quad Core Mobile Processor i7-3720QM (2.60GHz) 6MB

Memory (RAM)
16GB SAMSUNG 1600MHz SODIMM DDR3 MEMORY (2 x 8GB)

Graphics Card
NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 680M - 4.0GB DDR5 Video RAM - DirectX® 11

Memory - Hard Disk
750GB SEAGATE MOMENTUS XT HYBRID, SATA 6 Gb/s, 32MB CACHE (7200 rpm)

DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
8x SATA DVD±R/RW/Dual Layer (+ 24x CD-RW)

Memory Card Reader
Internal 9 in 1 Card Reader (MMC/RSMMC/SD: Mini, XC & HC/MS: Pro & Duo)

Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4 EXTREME THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND (£9)

Sound Card
Intel 2 Channel High Definition Audio + MIC/Headphone Jack

Bluetooth & Wireless
GIGABIT LAN & WIRELESS INTEL® N130 802.11N (150Mbps) + BLUETOOTH

USB Options
3 x USB 3.0 PORTS + 1 x USB 2.0 PORT AS STANDARD

Firewire
1 X 1394a FIREWIRE PORT

Battery
Vortex Series 8 Cell Lithium Ion Battery (5,200 mAh/76.96WH)

Power Lead & Adaptor
1 x European Power Lead & 180W AC Adaptor

Operating System
Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit w/SP1 - inc DVD & Licence

Office Software
NO OFFICE SOFTWARE

Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE

Keyboard Language
INTEGRATED BACKLIT UK KEYBOARD WITH NUMBER PAD

Notebook Mouse
INTEGRATED 2 BUTTON TOUCHPAD MOUSE

Webcam
INTEGRATED 2.0 MEGAPIXEL WEBCAM

Warranty
3 Year Standard Warranty (1 Month Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)

Insurance
1 Month Free Laptop Insurance inc. Accidental Damage & Theft

[Lemur]

Is this the HD you had in mind?

Really, the only one to consider is the 750 GB Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid. -edit- I see it's the one you have listed (you must have added the specs after I posted). That drive is so fast, I know people who use it in desktops. Beast of a drive.

I didn't think of VPN-ing, but it might be worth the extra 30£.

VPN and the ability to join a domain are gimped out of Win7 Home, so it's definitely worth the extra 30 quid if you ever intend to use it as a work machine. For example, if your login at work is swordsmaster@widgetco.com, Home will not allow you to join the domain. Nor can you VPN to see your work files. Big headache. Can't tell you how many people I know who tried to cheap out with Home and had to ugprade to Pro. Save yourself the pain.

-edit of the edit-

I see they offer a one-year pickup and return warranty for five quid. Might be worth it, especially if your time is precious.

[SwordsMaster]

Ordered! Should arrive in 2 weeks.

[SwordsMaster]

It's finally here! Arrived last week. Had some initial issues with bad keyboard wiring, but all solved now, runs like a charm!

EDIT: Some unpacking pictures

[Lemur]

Onkyo speakers? Fancy.

[SwordsMaster]

Very decent volume and sound quality too! Overall very happy. Except with the power supply. Its the size of a 11' laptop, and I'm barely even exaggerating.

Onkyo speakers? Fancy.

[Lemur]

So have you loaded it up with some modern games to see how they run?

[Ice]

You have a nice graphics card. The 680 was a good call as anything lower would struggle with higher end games.

[SwordsMaster]

So have you loaded it up with some modern games to see how they run?

Well, now:
Max Payne 3 - highest settings - smooth as silk.
Dishonoured: - had to disable 'rat shadows', and swap MLAA to FXAA for optimal smoothness
Skyrim: - Not even funny. Spend 20 min standing atop a mountain looking down at the valley. Beautiful.
Witcher 2: MUCH better than I had been able to play before: went from a 1280x res to 1920x, but some high-end settings still make it stutter. Dont know what kind of best this game needs...
Funnily Deadlight seems to provide a challenge... Not that many graphic options, but still have occasional stutter.
Gave LA Noire a go - it doesn't even seem to be the same game I played before. Might even run through it again once I'm done with Dishonoured.
Mass Effect 3 seems very much improved also. But I'll defer further playing until after I've gotten a decent save from my old machine with all the achievements.
Sleeping Dogs: Looks beautiful with the lights and reflections on cars, and steel/glass buildings. However, had some stutter even on 'Medium' settings. Not sure if the limitation is elsewhere, or is a console port issue.
Looking forward to trying ACIII.

Overall very happy with it. The girlfriend threatens to leave me. I've beaten Sleeping dogs and XCOM in the past 10 days...