Sweden 2012

[Montmorency]

What? The point is that, accepting your data at face value and without any critical analysis - which is what you ask of us - it seems that immigration is responsible for a marginal increase in total rapes, at worst. Hence the tradeoff I posed; ould you be willing to kick out or bar from immigrating some hundreds of Africans to prevent one rape?

I can easily moralize back at you

I have not moralized. On the other hand, it's all you've managed to do.

help hundreds of Somalis build a working life in, or close to, their home region and culture?

So, help them how? What could be more helpful than moving to a wealthy state? What are your alternatives and how are they cheaper than loose immigration policies?

'Help them to be far away from me', apparently?

[Fragony]

Not so marginal, you have absolutely no idea what you are yapping about.

Similar in Norway in areas where culture has been enriched

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u6k9P7L3tYk

[CBR]

Counting convicted rapists immigrants stand for between 50-60%.

And same in Denmark if looking at last few years. And if one looks at total numbers from 2004 to today the overall is around a third. So it is a rising trend.

[Fragony]

And same in Denmark if looking at last few years. And if one looks at total numbers from 2004 to today the overall is around a third. So it is a rising trend.

Take the same numbers, take the amount of immigrants, and take in the area's they occur into the equation. I don't inow if this is the same in Denmark but in Sweden you are only considered to be of foreign descent if you weren't born there which is of course nonsense, statistical wizzardly and everybody knows that. Some parts of Sweden have a higher rape-rate than South-Africa, women paint their hair to avoid unwanted attention. Again, watch the docu 'la femme de rue' dear lefties, it must be a nightmare to live in Brussels in some area's.

[Montmorency]

Some parts of Sweden have a higher rape-rate than South-Africa

Some street corners have an infinitely higher murder rate than most of the planet.

[Fragony]

Some street corners have an infinitely higher murder rate than most of the planet.

Sure they do, and in Sweden there are streets with more rapes than South Africa, and probably the universe and surroundings. That is because people like you are unwilling to accept an obvious problem with the way Swedish immigrants think about white chicks.

[Kadagar_AV]

What? The point is that, accepting your data at face value and without any critical analysis - which is what you ask of us - it seems that immigration is responsible for a marginal increase in total rapes, at worst. Hence the tradeoff I posed; ould you be willing to kick out or bar from immigrating some hundreds of Africans to prevent one rape?



I have not moralized. On the other hand, it's all you've managed to do.



So, help them how? What could be more helpful than moving to a wealthy state? What are your alternatives and how are they cheaper than loose immigration policies?

'Help them to be far away from me', apparently?

About 5% of the population stand for roughly half the rapes (WAY more if you count assault rapes), and you call their impact marginal? I get the 5% figure when I subtract westerners and East Asians from the group "immigrants", as these immigrant groups are statistically as likely, or less likely, than Swedes to commit these type of crimes.


I already answered the "help them how". Build schools, make sure they have food and water, UN troops safeguarding them, give them internet... There are LOTS we can do.

[Montmorency]

If there are 1.25 million first-generation immigrants in Sweden, and we're taking '6500 rapes' at face value - as well as '50% of rapes by immigrants' - then we should arrive at a metric of 400 immigrants per rape. If you don't like it that simple, then you'd better take Kival & Horetore's nuance more seriously.

If it's Muslims solely that you want to look at, well, you mentioned immigrants being responsible for 50% of rapes, not Muslim immigrants.

Anyway, looking at the statistics on Wiki, you apparently have a negligible amount of them. In fact, the Muslim cohort doesn't seem to be growing much more than 10000 yearly.

I already answered the "help them how". Build schools, make sure they have food and water, UN troops safeguarding them, give them internet... There are LOTS we can do.

This is cheaper than immigration? I'll need some convincing.

Sure they do, and in Sweden there are streets with more rapes than South Africa, and probably the universe and surroundings.

But we don't look at statistics for street corners - we look at citywide, regional, and national statistics. Your line doesn't really mean much without sgnificant elaboration.

[Fragony]

'But we don't look at statistics for street corners - we look at citywide, regional, and national statistics. Your line doesn't really mean much without sgnificant elaboration.'

Is 100% of all assault rapes in Oslo, Norway, a bit of an indication? Same for Sweden probably, at least close it seems

[Montmorency]

100% of assault rapes in Norway occur in Oslo? Or 100% of assault rapes in Oslo are by immigrants?

Either way, I'm certain there was a thread debunking it just a couple of months ago.

Edit: Ah yes: the 5 assault rapes in 2011, was it? Even you gave up on that point once it met scrutiny.

[CBR]

I don't inow if this is the same in Denmark but in Sweden you are only considered to be of foreign descent if you weren't born there which is of course nonsense, statistical wizzardly and everybody knows that.

The numbers I saw mentioned both foreign born and second generation, so no hidden stuff.

I don't where the rapists lived but the ghettos seem to cause most of the problems with gangs and other crime. Although one can easily find some disturbing comments made by foreigners regarding women, it seems ghettos might be the main reason for the higher crime rates. Not many dared to talk too much about it earlier, for fear of sounding like a racist, but things have changed here resulting in a more open debate. Sweden seems to a few decades behind Denmark, as political correctness has played a bigger role there, but the Sweden Democrats seems to be climbing in the polls so maybe the winds are changing.

[Fragony]

100% of assault rapes in Norway occur in Oslo? Or 100% of assault rapes in Oslo are by immigrants?

Either way, I'm certain there was a thread debunking it just a couple of months ago.

Edit: Ah yes: the 5 assault rapes in 2011, was it? Even you gave up on that point once it met scrutiny.

^ few posts up, the official statement of the police

[Montmorency]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nt-in-the-room

ffs its rite there

[Fragony]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nt-in-the-room

ffs its rite there

Got trembling hands? It's all in the official statement of the police, I, just my guess, assume you want to the discuss the total of rapes, which happen at parties. Am i right?

[Kadagar_AV]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nt-in-the-room

ffs its rite there

I have a hard time believing a thread came to the conclusion that immigrants aren't HUGELY over represented in assault rape statistics.

Looking at Sweden, it's a fact beyond questioning.

[Montmorency]

I have a hard time believing a thread came to the conclusion that immigrants aren't HUGELY over represented in assault rape statistics.

No, the relevance here is Fragony's sweeping claim that 100% of assault rapes in Oslo are committed by immigrants. This notion was handily demolished in the course of the linked thread.

Looking at Sweden, it's a fact beyond questioning.

This is a crude way of looking at it, and my metric is an equally crude solution. But there's more than one angle to it. What you miss is that the gross total of rapes going by your statistics is rather low, and a reaction against over a million immigrants over the actions of a few hundred makes no sense. If you could find a source showing that of all immigrants, the one's responsible for rapes are usually Muslim, it would even then not be sufficient basis for any sort of policy action. You would first need to consider that most of these Muslim immigrants are from poor areas. You ought to control for income, education levels, age, and generations since settling. After all this, would you find a meaningful correlation that indicates significant culture shock? Can you do all this? I see it as necessary.

You need to get out of the tabloid mindset. 'Oh no Muslims are raping everyone we must do something!' is both ridiculous and unhelpful. At the very least begin by finding a source that can break down crime statistics very finely by demographic.

Furthermore, how do you account for the fact that

[Kadagar_AV]

No, the relevance here is Fragony's sweeping claim that 100% of assault rapes in Oslo are committed by immigrants. This notion was handily demolished in the course of the linked thread.



This is a crude way of looking at it, and my metric is an equally crude solution. But there's more than one angle to it. What you miss is that the gross total of rapes going by your statistics is rather low, and a reaction against over a million immigrants over the actions of a few hundred makes no sense. If you could find a source showing that of all immigrants, the one's responsible for rapes are usually Muslim, it would even then not be sufficient basis for any sort of policy action. You would first need to consider that most of these Muslim immigrants are from poor areas. You ought to control for income, education levels, age, and generations since settling. After all this, would you find a meaningful correlation that indicates significant culture shock? Can you do all this? I see it as necessary.

You need to get out of the tabloid mindset. 'Oh no Muslims are raping everyone we must do something!' is both ridiculous and unhelpful. At the very least begin by finding a source that can break down crime statistics very finely by demographic.

Furthermore, how do you account for the fact that

I think your post broke there mate.

But to give you an answer to the top bit.

WHY do I need to account for income, education levels and so on?

The immigrants are poor and uneducated because they come from poor and uneducated countries. So instead of speaking of Muslims, you can just say "We shouldn't accept as many people from poor and uneducated countries without supervision and teaching".

Just because you LABEL them differently, it really has no effect on the problem at hand. I don't care if they rape because they are Muslim, or because they are poor, or because they are uneducated, or because... or because... and so on...




However, one thing mustn't be forgotten. I don't give a **** about rape statistics compared to the bigger problem of economic drain of society and the upheaval of the social safety.

Yes we have a rape problem, but that we have gone from being a country where you happily pay huge taxes, because you trust the people around you... To a country where you don't trust the people around you... Is what has the most negative impact on society IMHO.

With that said, it's not like I don't respect the white girls who have been gang raped by a bunch of ghetto Negroes. It is a horrible, horrible crime, and we as society must do more to prevent it.

[Fragony]

And and and

@ the brit

[Montmorency]

I think your post broke there mate.

I can't recall.

Just because you LABEL them differently, it really has no effect on the problem at hand. I don't care if they rape because they are Muslim, or because they are poor, or because they are uneducated, or because... or because... and so on...

It obviously tells you who is responsible. Right now you've got it at "immigrants", and perhaps "Muslims", or even "blacks". If all you know is "immigrants are responsible for half of rapes", then concluding 'blacks are the problem' may just be problematic. The information may also inform the solution, one other than just kicking everyone out.

However, one thing mustn't be forgotten. I don't give a **** about rape statistics compared to the bigger problem of economic drain of society and the upheaval of the social safety.

Now you'll need to demonstrate a significant long-term drain on the economy, and the same for social safety. For instance, if 2nd-to-3rd gen citizens are closer to the national average for crime, would you perceive a "problem"? It needs investigation, not a knee-jerk fear response that may well be totally baseless.

With that said, it's not like I don't respect the white girls who have been gang raped by a bunch of ghetto Negroes.

When you say things like this, you really do sound racist. That white girls aren't the only conceivable rape victim is only the beginning of it...

Just rethink your approach to this, as it's got some issues.

[Fragony]

'It obviously tells you who is responsible. Right now you've got it at "immigrants", and perhaps "Muslims", or even "blacks". If all you know is "immigrants are responsible for half of rapes", then concluding 'blacks are the problem' may just be problematic. The information may also inform the solution, one other than just kicking everyone out.'

Where did you see any advocating of that? It isn't there it isn't real.

[Kival]

Some parts of Sweden have a higher rape-rate than South-Africa, women paint their hair to avoid unwanted attention.

You're spreading misinformations. It is "true" but only if you ignore that not all cases considered rape in sweden are considered rape in S-A and that the report rate in sweden is much higher. Sweden may have a problem in increasing rapes and it may have something to do with the immigrants. The populistic cries of "It's worse there than in South-Africa" are at best missunderstanding of statistics and at worst propaganda. Survey studies from the point of victims put Sweden to an average rape-rate for Europe as it seems so far. But in this short time I can't evaluate that well enough. I would be very suspicious towards anyone who claims to know the relations here just by quoting some numbers from random statistics.

@Kadagar_AV Are there any studies indicating that the swedish believe in the social system is erroding?

Just one very important thing to consider when looking at criminology data is *not to believe the police data*. They are not neutral. They are an interest group themself. Considering police crime data one always has to have a look what *actually* is measured there. For example the german crime data is about reported crimes and suspects brought to court. While this statistic indicates a big percentage of some crimes to be perpetrated by immigrants, careful analysis af court statistics show, that from the convincted the percentage of immigrants is much smaller. This does not have to apply here, it's meant to examplify the general problem with crime data.

[Fragony]

If it's true then how am I spreading misinformation.

[Kival]

Maybe my english isn't good enough but what part did you not understand here?

You're spreading misinformations. It is "true" but only if you ignore that not all cases considered rape in sweden are considered rape in S-A and that the report rate in sweden is much higher.

Survey studies from the point of victims put Sweden to an average rape-rate for Europe as it seems so far

?

[Montmorency]

I obliquely put forth the critical fault with the claim that 'parts of City X/Country X have higher rape rates than parts of South Africa'.

Visit South Africa, and you will find a street corner where no rapes have occurred. Visit a Northern European state, and you will find a street corner where a rape has occurred. Thus, a part of Sweden has an infinitely higher rape rate than a part of south Africa. That tells us absolutely nothing about the state of rape crime in the two places. It's a tabloid headline, nothing more.

[Fragony]

Yeahyeah Kival, doing fine

[Kival]

I obliquely put forth the critical fault with the claim that 'parts of City X/Country X have higher rape rates than parts of South Africa'.

Visit South Africa, and you will find a street corner where no rapes have occurred. Visit a Northern European state, and you will find a street corner where a rape has occurred. Thus, a part of Sweden has an infinitely higher rape rate than a part of south Africa. That tells us absolutely nothing about the state of rape crime in the two places. It's a tabloid headline, nothing more.

This is true, too. I didn't take this line of thought too literally, but if Fagony really compares street to country level all hope is probably already lost....

[Kival]

Yeahyeah Kival, doing fine

So you understand that your comparison of rape rates doesn't work this way?

[Fragony]

So you understand that your comparison of rape rates doesn't work this way?

Point being

[Kival]

Point being

It's wrong to imply that more rapes occur in sweden than in south-africa. Sweden doesn't have more rapes than average european countries according to studies who do not look at the report rate but at a random sample which is asked if they have been sexually assaulted etc. pp. (at least I read that but I couldn#t get a hand at this survey directly so far). Before you can claim to know the reasons for the numbers, we have to understand the numbers themselves.

EDIT: I do btw. not claim to know it, I just try to explain you that your data don't tell us anything useful here.

[Kadagar_AV]

Monty, are you on drugs? No really, where do you find me supporting "kicking everybody out".

We need to take care of those we have here properly, and we need to think twice before accepting more. Again, we accept 1+% of our population a year. That is HUGE!! We accept WAY more than other comparable countries, and on top of that we accept those other countries don't want.

Don't mistake your nations problems with mine, please.

Long term drain on the economy... There is not one economist who think this is good for Sweden financially. Even the pro-immigration politicians gave up on trying to argue that it is good for economy, and now center their arguments around Sweden being a Beacon Of Good.

Second generation immigrants aren't exactly turning out to be the model citizens we had hoped for. About social safety it gets dismantled bit by bit. I have a hard time imagining ANY Swede would argue against that. The most clear example is that we have gone from a socialist country to a liberal one. People thought socialism was OK back when we were more homogeneous, but now we're not we have suddenly started to think "Hey, why should I pay for him". It's sad, I miss the old Sweden.

About the last bit, sorry, that's how I see it. It's completely UNHEARD of to have a bunch of white guys roaming the streets looking for a immigrant girl to rape, but the other way around has happened frequently. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it isn't true.

When a white girl 2012 goes out for a night out, she has good reasons to fear ending up raped and beaten by a gang. This sort of things just didn't happen some years ago.

Again, assault rape statistics are VERY one sided. Whether you like it or not. And maybe Muslim girls get gang raped too, but we have yet to see the victims, so for now I have to assume the attacks are targeted specifically at white girls.

Racial hate goes both ways you know.



Kival, I wouldn't care much about Frags to be honest, and I find it annoying that he seem to be supporting me. Not long ago he claimed Hitler didn't oppose Jews in "Mein Kampf", and then defended this ridiculous position to the extremes. I have put him on ignore since, and judging by the reactions on his posts thus far, I seem to have no reason to regret it.