Ron Paul's Farewell Speech to Congress: The End of a Cult Figure

[gaelic cowboy]

You don't. You set the values of OTHER things in Joules.

but your merely moving the goalpost here trying to tie things down in values of x = y amount of money.

You still dont explain why fixing money to anything helps it's value, plus if for any reason we increased energy production we would increase the available joules changing the potential price of an object in joules.

[Whacker]

itt communist economic education

[rvg]

but your merely moving the goalpost here trying to tie things down in values of x = y amount of money.

You still dont explain why fixing money to anything helps it's value, plus if for any reason we increased energy production we would increase the available joules changing the potential price of an object in joules.

To me it's self-evident. You need one point of reference against which everything is measured. As for why energy, it's because the demand for energy is universal and will always be that way.

[Sir Moody]

To me it's self-evident. You need one point of reference against which everything is measured. As for why energy, it's because the demand for energy is universal and will always be that way.

Demand is universal yes but the cost of production is not

1 Joule produced from a Coal powered power plant will cost X while 1 Joule produced from a Gas Y and so on - how do you fix a value on something which is inherently linked to the form (more specifically the fuel) of its production?

This is why some think a "Gold" standard would work - because Gold is gold and the more you have the more valuable it is...

The problem with the Gold standard however is the fact the value of your money is inherently linked to the amount of Gold you have independent of how well the actual economy is performing - if you have little gold you have to raise interest rates regardless of how well the Economy is actually performing

[rvg]

1 Joule produced from a Coal powered power plant will cost X while 1 Joule produced from a Gas Y and so on - how do you fix a value on something which is inherently linked to the form (more specifically the fuel) of its production?

Same can be said about gold. Gold doesn't come from mommy and daddy gold, it needs to be mined. Mining gold is an expensive and difficult process, but it varies alot. Yet the value of gold is the same, regardless of how it was obtained.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Its Gary, not Ron. But I see what you did there.

Oh, that's 100% error on my part lol. I keep getting those two mixed up. It's like the Futurama episode between Jack Johnson and John Jackson.

[Sir Moody]

Same can be said about gold. Gold doesn't come from mommy and daddy gold, it needs to be mined. Mining gold is an expensive and difficult process, but it varies alot. Yet the value of gold is the same, regardless of how it was obtained.

actually it isn't - another reason the Gold standard fails - it is far too simplisitc

[rvg]

actually it isn't...

And the reason for that is?

[gaelic cowboy]

Same can be said about gold. Gold doesn't come from mommy and daddy gold, it needs to be mined. Mining gold is an expensive and difficult process, but it varies alot. Yet the value of gold is the same, regardless of how it was obtained.

This value your talking about is not fixed though it's merely an agreement between two parties.

And the reason for that is?

Any increase or decrease in the amounts of gold changes the variables of the two parties and so changes the price of gold.

Changes in the price of gold would severely hurt an economy no matter how robust or diversified it's industrial base.

[Ronin]

he had 2 loony ideas for every reasonable one.
the only thing surprising about him is the cult around him I find online.

[Sir Moody]

see what happens - I drive home and someone has already answered the question

[rvg]

This value your talking about is not fixed though it's merely an agreement between two parties.

So what? Every commodity is worth whatever it can be sold for.

Any increase or decrease in the amounts of gold changes the variables of the two parties and so changes the price of gold.

As it should be.

Changes in the price of gold would severely hurt an economy no matter how robust or diversified it's industrial base.

That has yet to happen...

[HoreTore]

That has yet to happen...

lol, what?

The price of grain is more stable than the price of gold.

[rvg]

lol, what?

The price of grain is more stable than the price of gold.

Its fluctuation has yet to bring down an economy.

[HoreTore]

Its fluctuation has yet to bring down an economy.

The availability of the metal has, however.

And more importantly, the economy is prone to crashing and burning no matter what the status of gold is. Gold really is irrelevant to an economy. Back in the days it served as the perfect trade item, but now we have better options. So, thankfully gold went out the window.

[Sir Moody]

Its fluctuation has yet to bring down an economy.

The Gold standard is considered one of the contributors to the great depression

[gaelic cowboy]

So what? Every commodity is worth whatever it can be sold for.

But your not trying to allow it to float so it can be sold RVG you saying you want to fix a value to a currency. Therefore increase/decrease of the denominated notional commodity be it energy, gold or oil will change value of your currency.

That has yet to happen...

Well that's cos no one has been daft enough to fix there currency to gold since the disaster we had the last time it was done.

However if you want to see what a gold standard style recession looks like then check out the euro crisis, once you tip into recession you cant print money leaving only deflation of the economy.

[rvg]

Back in the days it served as the perfect trade item, but now we have better options. So, thankfully gold went out the window.

It still can be. There's no reason why it needs to be, but it can be if we run out of options. When things go South, people still turn to gold.

But your not trying to allow it to float so it can be sold RVG you saying you want to fix a value to a currency. Therefore increase/decrease of the denominated notional commodity be it energy, gold or oil will change value of your currency.

So what? currency fluctuates all the time. Dollar rises and dips every day. That doesn't mean that prices follow it. Prices only follow long term trends.

[gaelic cowboy]

It still can be. There's no reason why it needs to be, but it can be if we run out of options. When things go South, people still turn to gold.

there isn't enough gold for all the dollars in the world never mind all of the other world currencies, and if you did go back on a gold standard everyone would have to do it or it would fail in a year.

[rvg]

The Gold standard is considered one of the contributors to the great depression

That's hardly a universal view.

there isn't enough gold for all the dollars in the world never mind all of the other world currencies, and if you did go back on a gold standard everyone would have to do it or it would fail in a year.

Sure there is. The currencies just need to be devalued according to the availability of gold.

[gaelic cowboy]

That's hardly a universal view.

it's a fact that rigidly sticking to a universal standard at a time of economic weakness lengthened the recession.

Sure there is. The currencies just need to be devalued according to the availability of gold.

but that's the point you couldn't devalue it as it would be worth X gold, instead you would have to stop money creation through high interest rates and you would need to deflate the economy instead.

[rvg]

it's a fact that rigidly sticking to a universal standard at a time of economic weakness lengthened the recession.

A fact? Highly debatable at best.

but that's the point you couldn't devalue it as it would be worth X gold, instead you would have to stop money creation through high interest rates and you would need to deflate the economy instead.

Something's gotta give. If the currency is to be static, the printing presses must be stopped.

[gaelic cowboy]

Something's gotta give. If the currency is to be static, the printing presses must be stopped.

the last thing you want is a static currency but anyone who invested in gold or is already very wealthy would love it.

[rvg]

the last thing you want is a static currency but anyone who invested in gold or is already very wealthy would love it.

I disagree. Those who invested in gold have nothing to fear from inflation.

[gaelic cowboy]

I disagree. Those who invested in gold have nothing to fear from inflation.

You can only realise the value of your holdings when you sell them, but then your subject to inflation again.

[rvg]

You can only realise the value of your holdings when you sell them, but then your subject to inflation again.

Why would they need to sell their gold? That's like selling Apple shares == dumb idea. And I don't need to sell my gold to know that it's appreciating in value.

[gaelic cowboy]

Why would they need to sell their gold? That's like selling Apple shares == dumb idea. And I don't need to sell my gold to know that it's appreciating in value.

you cant go into the local supermarket and buy a loaf of bread for a gold share you would need to sell some of it eventually.

[rvg]

you cant go into the local supermarket and buy a loaf of bread for a gold share you would need to sell some of it eventually.

Some of it, sure. Only as much as you need to spend though. There's absolutely no reason to sell more than that. And whatever you immediately sell for spending purposes is not affected by inflation unless you're talking about hyperinflation, in which case it's actually better to barter rather than use currency at all.

[rvg]

I will always hold the highest regard for Ron Paul as an unwavering champion of individual freedom, no matter the cost. He was, is, and always will be one of the most honest politicians in American history, and certainly the only politician of our modern era who wasn't afraid to say what he meant.

This is very true. His integrity was a huge part of his appeal.

[The Lurker Below]

there aren't enough dissenting voices being heard in the U.S. - most everybody is so certain their party is Move On perfect in every way and that the other party is full of wackos - any third party noise isn't normally given the time of day. for Ron Paul to gain as much traction as he did for as long as he did is to be congratulated. wouldn't it be great if more differing ideas could get some air time here.