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  1. #1
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Ah, thread reopened. 104 views, some of you are bound to have an opinion. Fire away!



    Would you care to explain why you believe that comparison is meaningful and/or valid?
    yes does it matter if you are too stupid to do anything or just too stupid to read and write?

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    yes does it matter if you are too stupid to do anything or just too stupid to read and write?
    I have no idea what you mean, sorry.

    Anyway, back to ze thread.

    The opening post was offensive, that was the point. The question is, why is it offensive?

    This thread was reported to the mods, locked, etc. Apparently calling people dumb because they can't read or write is a nono. A while ago, there was a thread about how people who don't understand politics should be treated as second-class citizen and have their voting rights removed. No reporting was done in that case as far as I know.

    That situation is exactly the same as this one. But oh noes, you say, those who can't read or write have dyslexia! It's a condition, they can't help it! The fact is that it's the same, with one exception: those who can't read or write get a fancy-sounding name for their inability, and gain social acceptance for who they are. Those who don't understand politics are called dumb and people want to take away their voting rights.

    Dyslexia is not a disease. It's not a medical condition. It's not contagious, and it's not something you can cure. In layman's terms, it's called "being dumb". In technical terms, it's called "(severe) problems with writing". Imagine if I had written the OP about statistics, for example. Would anyone have reported me then? I think not. Yet more people struggle with statistics than writing, and calling them "dumb" is perfectly acceptable in society.

    Caravel is a lucky man. Few people with specific math difficulties get much help. It's much more common for those who struggle with maths to feel "dumb" and end up thinking they're failures.

    I should be happy at the social acceptance people who struggle with writing are getting. But I just can't enjoy that when I see people who have the exact same struggle in other fields get harassed on a daily basis. And that's the point of this thread.



    And Frags, no. Just no. Struggling with writing is not helpful in understanding mathematics. Your ears remain the same if you lose your sight, they do not grow super-awesome over night. Blind people simply have to rely more on their hearing.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  3. #3

    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    I should be happy at the social acceptance people who struggle with writing are getting. But I just can't enjoy that when I see people who have the exact same struggle in other fields get harassed on a daily basis. And that's the point of this thread.
    Oh. I figured your point was something Carlin-esque.

    Your ears remain the same if you lose your sight, they do not grow super-awesome over night. Blind people simply have to rely more on their hearing.
    Neural plasticity. In blind individuals, brain regions concerned with sight shrink - while other regions are growing at their expense. If you lose a hand, the adjacent areas (wrist and neck?) in the somatic map grow, increasing sensitivity there. That's not to say dyslexia necessarily entails a similar process, though.

    I should be happy at the social acceptance people who struggle with writing are getting. But I just can't enjoy that when I see people who have the exact same struggle in other fields get harassed on a daily basis. And that's the point of this thread.


    Dyslexia is not a disease. It's not a medical condition.
    It's a disability.

    And as you mentioned in the other thread:

    Dysl
    Dyslexia is indeed only applicable to those who perform average or above in other subjects. The same goes for dyscalculi, the math equivalent. That doesn't mean we don't have a way to "determine dyslexia" in below-average students, however. The short version:

    If you're crap at reading, but do well on other stuff, you have dyslexia.
    If you're crap at reading and a bunch of other stuff, we have a different term for your situation.
    "Just being dumb" is a primitive and limited way of looking at things, so if you're still on your rhetorical plank - I agree that it should be abandoned. Whenever I think of someone as "dumb" or "stupid", I wonder to myself, 'Boy didn't that feel good' and reassess the situation.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 12-04-2012 at 13:34.
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  4. #4
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Disability? How can you define "stupidity", if not by "disability"?

    What goes for those who struggle with writing goes for those who struggle with maths, politics or biology. Personally, I of course don't call or consider any of the four "dumb". Those who struggle with these things simply struggle with them. There's nothing more to it, and my job is to help them. Society, however, makes a distinction between those who struggle with writing(and increasingly, maths) and those who struggle in other fields.

    Tiaexz posted a link of a list with famous people who can't write properly. Can you imagine a list of "famous people who don't understand politics", without people looking at the list only to get cheap laughs? No? Why?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  5. #5

    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Disability? How can you define "stupidity", if not by "disability"?
    Then of course it should at once be labeled a psychological disorder, as we're all on the spectrum? Hehe.

    Tiaexz posted a link of a list with famous people who can't write properly. Can you imagine a list of "famous people who don't understand politics", without people looking at the list only to get cheap laughs? No? Why?
    This reminds me of a point my 8th-grade math teacher once made: "Plenty of people are innumerate, and aren't ashamed to admit it. But can you imagine going up to a person and asking them their opinion on a popular book, only to hear, 'Aw shyucks, now I cayun't reead!'?"

    It seems to be a mix between how common the thing is perceived to be - if most are bad at math, it's no surprise that society, as reflecting a majority view, would put it down as venial - and how basic the incapacity is.

    Think of "retards". They get the most soft-handed treatment of all, nowadays, and they're living with maximal incapacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Unless we're going to say there is no free will and the universe is 100% predictable and pre-determined.
    Hey now, we could say that even if the universe were random.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 12-04-2012 at 13:52.
    Vitiate Man.

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  6. #6
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    I'm going to pour some mor gasoline on this thread:

    Inability to write is associated with boys. Inability to do maths is associated with girls. The boys get help and understanding, the girls got nothing but contempt. The school system(and society) is focused on problems boys face, while ignoring girls.

    The argument that the school is designed for girls is nonsense. The school is designed for boys.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  7. #7

    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Oh, sorry, that was the point, Husar jogged me: between perception of innate capacity and incapacity down to 'gross' or 'unusual' ignorance - ignorance of something that every normal person should have knowledge of. Something like that, will do for now.

    Inability to do maths is associated with girls.
    Is that the old prejudice or are you referring to scientific findings?

    The argument that the school is designed for girls is nonsense. The school is designed for boys.
    Do you mean that in the sense of 'designed for' or 'biased towards'?
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  8. #8
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Disability? How can you define "stupidity", if not by "disability"?
    Lazyness. Sometimes you may notice that people don't use their brain and then you explain something to them and they understand it perfectly well. They're not disabled or unable, they just didn't invest any time into thinking about the issue. And for a moment they are stupid because they decide not to use their brain capacity.*

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'm going to pour some mor gasoline on this thread:

    Inability to write is associated with boys. Inability to do maths is associated with girls. The boys get help and understanding, the girls got nothing but contempt. The school system(and society) is focused on problems boys face, while ignoring girls.

    The argument that the school is designed for girls is nonsense. The school is designed for boys.
    Maybe in your chauvinistic socialist paradise...




    *For more information about brain capacity, please visit your local church of scientology.


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  9. #9
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    And Frags, no. Just no. Struggling with writing is not helpful in understanding mathematics. Your ears remain the same if you lose your sight, they do not grow super-awesome over night. Blind people simply have to rely more on their hearing.
    That's partly correct, but you forgot to mention that the brain adapts and uses regions that cannot be used anymore to improve other areas. For example the area responsible for sight may change over time and help with the interpretation and filtering of sounds. That does not excuse being too dumb to see, of course.

    As for politics, it depends. Not everything is birth-related and even some things that are are the fault of the parents who smoked for example even though they knew better. Unless we're going to say there is no free will and the universe is 100% predictable and pre-determined.


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  10. #10
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I have no idea what you mean, sorry.
    you ask, why should we accept that certain people lack the cognitive abilities to perform certain tasks. I ask you, do you accept people with down syndrome? Because clearly they lack the cognitive abilities to perform certain tasks as well. And the tasks they cant perform seem fundamentally more important to me than those dyslexic people cant perform.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    you ask, why should we accept that certain people lack the cognitive abilities to perform certain tasks. I ask you, do you accept people with down syndrome? Because clearly they lack the cognitive abilities to perform certain tasks as well. And the tasks they cant perform seem fundamentally more important to me than those dyslexic people cant perform.
    .....and the question then, is why do you accept those with downs syndrome and dyslexia, but not those who can't figure out fractions, how to read a map or biology?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  12. #12
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    .....and the question then, is why do you accept those with downs syndrome and dyslexia, but not those who can't figure out fractions, how to read a map or biology?
    who says i dont? it seems to me you are just looking out to shock, pour gasoline on flammable topics, because if your concern was, like you pointed out later, that we do not treat people with similar disabilities in a similar fashion, you could have and should have made this the main point of your OP. Also, i asked my question before you made this clear, so there was no way for me to know that that was your main concern.

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  13. #13
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    who says i dont?
    Because "everyone" does it.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  14. #14
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    BS...

    anyway for me, disability to do something is no reason to not accept that person. I however do believe that every person should atleast try to live up to his potential, I would not accept not trying (lazyness or carelesness in your layman's terms), I would accept limited potential (being dumb in your layman's terms).
    Last edited by The Stranger; 12-04-2012 at 16:02.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Concerning Dyslexia

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Dyslexia is not a disease. It's not a medical condition. It's not contagious, and it's not something you can cure. In layman's terms, it's called "being dumb". In technical terms, it's called "(severe) problems with writing". Imagine if I had written the OP about statistics, for example. Would anyone have reported me then? I think not. Yet more people struggle with statistics than writing, and calling them "dumb" is perfectly acceptable in society.
    On the off chance that you're not simply playing devil's advocate there and actually believe that, STFW.
    Last edited by caravel; 12-04-2012 at 15:10.
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