Still, "they killed Jesus" has been among the key aspects of christian antisemitism.
As for "who is a christian", I'd say the answer is "whoever defines themselves as such".
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Still, "they killed Jesus" has been among the key aspects of christian antisemitism.
As for "who is a christian", I'd say the answer is "whoever defines themselves as such".
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
An oxymoron if there ever was one.Originally Posted by HoreTore
The correct answer would be: Only God knows who is Christian and who is not.As for "who is a christian", I'd say the answer is "whoever defines themselves as such".
Status Emeritus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Only correct within christianity, not for those on the outside.The correct answer would be: Only God knows who is Christian and who is not.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Why would those outside Christianity want to define themselves as Christians?
Status Emeritus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
No idea, so that wasn't my point
Defining "christian" your way probably makes sense to a christian. For someone like me who doesn't believe in any gods, it makes no sense. I will have to define a christian as being those who define themselves that way.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
It makes perfect sense to me, not being a Christian myself. If someone claims to be a Christian, I would have to retort: That is for your God to decide.No idea, so that wasn't my point
Defining "christian" your way probably makes sense to a christian. For someone like me who doesn't believe in any gods, it makes no sense. I will have to define a christian as being those who define themselves that way.
Status Emeritus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
“And other private comments.” Yes. People asking questions to former Nazi having a lot to be forgotten and saying what Hitler said (AFTER the war), trying to please the victors… Very reliable witnesses: But wasn’t the Vatican that organise the escape to Argentina and others South American Countries of all the Nazis left without jobs?
“Christianity is the religion that has had the most significant influence on French culture, institutions, language, etc.” As culture is concern, as much as Paganism, Invasions (various), Colonisation and Wars, nothing for the institutions (France doesn’t follow the Rules of St Augustin anymore), and I can’t say that French is linked with Christianity. Latin was first the language of the Romans before to be the language of Christianity, and is the combination of 2 main streams medieval French (langue d’Oc and Langue d’Oi).
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Now that's being a smart-ass. Well played, good sir!It makes perfect sense to me, not being a Christian myself. If someone claims to be a Christian, I would have to retort: That is for your God to decide.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
So reality is and was an an oxymoron? Was Luther e.g. not a Christian or how do you want to claim, that there was no Christian antisemitism whatsoever?
‘Abdü’l-Mecīd-i evvel
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
You missed the part about Hitler getting elected being important then, and the Roman Catholics trying to stop it.
Here's a question - why didn't the Pope flee to Ireland after the Italians surrendered and Italy was occupied by the Germans?
People outside Christianity can't be allowed to define who or what we are - that allows you to lump us in with anti-Semites, White Supremacists...
Whatever.
That's like me defining who is and isn't a socialist - ultimately it's for the socialist political movement to decide.
Jesus was a Jew - and antisemitism is a complex phenomenon, I'll give you a cookie if you can work out why, historically, almost every group has persecuted Jews.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
i'd say both ways of defining are important, but they serve different purposes. Since you mentioned socialism(ding ding ding!)......
There are certain things I consider key aspects of socialism. Those who do not conform to those aspects, are not people I consider socialists at all, regardless of their stance on other issues. Gay rights and internationalism, for example. A person who opposes gay rights or who promote nationalism have nothing to do with socialism - the way I see socialism.
Violá - I've just removed the stench of Stalin from my socialist coat.
That, however, makes very little sense to an outsider - as far as the world is concerned, Stalin is a socialist, no matter how much of a chauvinist I (and Lenin) consider him. Even though have less in common with Stalin than I have with the leader of the conservative party, his name will forever be a part of the socialist movement I'm a part of.
I'd say the same goes for you. Even though it makes little sense to call people you have absolutely nothing in common with christian, to an outsider, the KKK is still christian.
Hitler wasn't one though. Nor was he gay, or any of the other thousands of labels people have put on him in their effort to distance him from themselves and lump him with the groups we don't like.
He was a vegitarian, though. Crazy buddhists.
Last edited by HoreTore; 12-05-2012 at 00:44.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
The problem is the rich history of murder, rape torture and complicity in criminal acts that extend now thousands of years. Its very easy to make a difinitive statement "Christians who support the church, a church which has commited several crimes are they themselves criminal" Its right up there with the driver of the get away car getting a jail sentence along with the bank robber. Sorry but being outside of christianity is a wonderful place to assess its cultural impact over its span and its wrought with ugly episodes of violence.
So yeah i think we can define what christians are, filthy stinking criminals who belong in the klink. The paddy wagon should be parked outside of churches all over the world this sunday waiting for you clowns to exit to cuff and stuff you for supporting the criminal enterprise. Pray for me and I'll pray for you. When we get to hell Ill be the one holding the suggestion box.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Your so called "definition" begs the question. You have offered nothing to support it.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
People do bad things - Christians are people - QED Christians do bad things.
The key thing to take away from that is that people do bad things, not Christians specifically.
Having said that, right now you're the one peddling ignorant hatred of something you have no understanding of - you might like to take a look at what everyone else was doing for the last two thousand years. Indians were throwing the wives of dead men on funeral piers alive, Muslims were enslaving Christians women and children on an industrial scale, the Vikings were making sacrifices to Odin.
You might benefit from reading the City of God Against the Pagans, specifically Augustine's bit in book one about how Christians treat each other in War and how Pagans treat each other.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
“specifically Augustine's bit in book one about how Christians treat each other in War” You mean, how the English King Henry V treated his French Prisoners after the Agincourt? They were both Christian and same Order (in St Augustin’s definition of the 3 orders). Or do you prefer the Great Peasants' Revolt, Germany, on how the very Christian Monarch and Nobility crushed it?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
I don't think that is logical. If you said:
All people do bad things - Christians are people.
Then you could say that Christians do bad things.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Atheist have done far worse in history than "christians". But both are sinners. But the point is, is when christian do things that are "bad" they do so in-spite of there beliefs, while atheist have no reason not to, and as hitler/darwin said are not being consistent with evolution if they pretend there are moral right and wrongs.
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?#
matt 7 15-16
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.#
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
1 john 4
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
What's christianitys take on stupidity?
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
I do not claim that there are no Christian anti-semitism. I am just pointing out the oxymoronic notion, that people who do believe in the canon of scripture can have any anti-semitic sentiments. If they believe the Bible - then they should believe that Israel including the tribe of Judah (Jews) are God's chosen people. Why would they be anti-God's people? Jesus Christ himself was a Jew, hence the oxymoron. To be "Christian" and have a general anti-Jew attidude doesn't compute. The Gospel of Christ was only taught to the Jews at first. Peter changed that, not Christ whilst alive.
Status Emeritus
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Agreed, christian's really should be called Messianic Judaism, jews that believe Jesus is the messiah. Or gentiles that became messianic Jews.
“Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1.1
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Same goes for Islamic anti-semitism.I do not claim that there are no Christian anti-semitism. I am just pointing out the oxymoronic notion, that people who do believe in the canon of scripture can have any anti-semitic sentiments. If they believe the Bible - then they should believe that Israel including the tribe of Judah (Jews) are God's chosen people. Why would they be anti-God's people? Jesus Christ himself was a Jew, hence the oxymoron. To be "Christian" and have a general anti-Jew attidude doesn't compute. The Gospel of Christ was only taught to the Jews at first. Peter changed that, not Christ whilst alive.
Yes, it's the exact same thing.
This space intentionally left blank.
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
Yes, as the Jew has infiltrated and talen control of the entire world, the resistance to their satanic perversion is pretty much the same all over the world.
Since we have a new member here, I feel the need to clarify: this was a joke.although with a core of truth, since the jewish conspiracy myth has spread to pretty much the entire world, and it's largely the same everywhere.
Last edited by HoreTore; 12-05-2012 at 22:41.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
From a strictly dogmatic perspective maybe. And only a modern one- AFAIK the position of the catholic church was, for a long time, that the jews as a religious (as opposed to ethnic) community were responsible for Jesus' crucifiction. I'm sure you can call upon various arguments as to why that position was ridiculous. Doesn't change the bare fact that christian anti-semitism did exist.
Again: from a dogmatic standpoint. In broad everyday use the word christian refers to someone who considers himself a member of a christian church. I couldn't care less about how much these self-described christians observe the tenets of their faith.The correct answer would be: Only God knows who is Christian and who is not.
This whole business of defining the term "christian" as the "true scotsman" annoys me. The latest thread about Hitler and atheist morality should give you an idea why. Generally the people who say "a real christian would not do that, it's in the definition of the word" show no reluctance whatsoever to claim that there are 2 billion christians on the planet.
Allthough I must admit I find it remarkable whenever someone calls himself a christian but who choses to cherry-pick the parts of the bible and established dogma which he believes/adheres to, not because of theological thinking but based on convenience or how it fits in with the rest of their worldview. Personally I tend to view the matter as black or white; either the essentials of christian dogma are correct or they're entirely nonsense. If God really exists, why would he allow nonsense about his Word to become so widespread, and why would so many honestly believing adherents fall for this nonsense for centuries?
Believing in only a part of it, for pragmatic reasons, always seemed like a form of hypocricy to me, albeit a harmless one.
Re: Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity
It isn't a philosophical quest to find 'the one true X', but a matter of shifting perspectives. Who defines this as what, and why? As for "2 billion Christians n the planet" - of course there are. As I mentioned, governments take census on terms of self-identification, and pretty much that alone. This is the administrative perspective.
Think of the fervent anti-Obamites in the USA, who hold Obama to be a socialist. What makes them 'wrong'? Nothing really, until you consider the label they confer in light of other, more internationally common definitions of socialism, historically common definitions of socialism, and historical individuals and regimes thought to be socialist. But that's just the start of the process - do you at least see the premise?
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
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