Legalized Marijuana

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A decent argument is made here. Bonus points for historical perspective. Summation: "America's been fighting this battle for decades. It can't be won, and it's costing us upwards of $20 billion a year."

I'm interested by this line of argument, define "won"?

[Major Robert Dump]

Well, I would think eradication of supply lines and a lowered demand would be one version of "won", neither of which apply to the war on drugs.

If we "won" is defined as incarcerating people for non violent and victimless crimes, and helping to push the us into a militarized police state, then yes, the drug war has been a resounding success

[HopAlongBunny]

Face it, any policy that continues for for half a century and shows no statistically significant results ought to be scrapped. If you had a city council that spent 50 years building a bridge, and the bridge was still not completed, you would be more than a little upset. In any other context voters would yell "Foul!" demand an audit and lynch the posse; for whatever reason this colossal failure gets a "pass".

[Idaho]

Probably more apt to compare it to a road traffic reduction policy. If the state had been talking about reducing road traffic levels for 50 years by policy x, and levels had not only increased, but all sorts of negative unintended consequences had occurred... Who would rate policy x as a success.

[Idaho]

Here comes the UK media backlash :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-stoned.html

[Beskar]

Here comes the UK media backlash :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-stoned.html

Quoting from the article:

After several decades of the tolerance policy, Dutch marijuana usage rates are in the middle of international norms, higher than those in neighboring Germany, but lower than those in France, Britain or the United States.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, I would think eradication of supply lines and a lowered demand would be one version of "won", neither of which apply to the war on drugs.

If we "won" is defined as incarcerating people for non violent and victimless crimes, and helping to push the us into a militarized police state, then yes, the drug war has been a resounding success

Well, drug-use is not victimless.

Let's stop thinking about this as a "war" and instead think about it as a judicial matter.

Unless you want to consider the War on Burglary.

Face it, any policy that continues for for half a century and shows no statistically significant results ought to be scrapped. If you had a city council that spent 50 years building a bridge, and the bridge was still not completed, you would be more than a little upset. In any other context voters would yell "Foul!" demand an audit and lynch the posse; for whatever reason this colossal failure gets a "pass".

Take a look at the history of Heroin use int eh UK - it spiked violently when it was legal.

[Montmorency]

Take a look at the history of Heroin use int eh UK - it spiked violently when it was legal.

When, the 1950s? I was under the impression that addiction was a minimal problem, experienced by a handful of middle-to-upper class individuals...

And isn't it still prescribed by your doctors?

[HopAlongBunny]

Here comes the UK media backlash :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-stoned.html

Obviously the authors didn't attend my Junior High under the policy of "Just say no!" Gee, students showing up stoned to class; at least the ones in the article went off school property to smoke :p

[Major Robert Dump]

Well, drug-use is not victimless.

Let's stop thinking about this as a "war" and instead think about it as a judicial matter.

Unless you want to consider the War on Burglary.



Take a look at the history of Heroin use int eh UK - it spiked violently when it was legal.

No, its not all victimless. However, marijuana is by far more victimless than something like crack, which takes us back to the Scheduling of the drugs. The primary victims of marijuana usage are the familes that lose a pareent or child because the cops come in and sieze all the assets in the house and any "drug money."

I just saw a story today of a guy caught in OKC with weed. He had an ounce and was considered a dealer, even though drugs like anything else are cheaper in bulk. Furthermore, he was a lawyer, and I find it hard to believe an attorney needed to sell weed to make ends meet. Next, he was charged with owning a gun while committing a felony, and the only reason it was a felony was because they tacked "intent to distribute" on to the possession charge. And finally, my favorite, was a charge for "using a communication device while in commission of a felony" which basically means the dude used his cell phone while in possession of weed, even though the call was not made in reference to a drug deal, even the police admit this. How can anyone, even the likes of you, say that the above charges are anything remotely reasonable or fair?

We don't call it a war on burglary. We dont send billions of dollars to south american countries to turn them into police states for a War on Burglary. We don't have ad campaigns about Just Say No to Burgalry, we don't tie highway and educational funds to wehtehr or not a state commits to the War on Burglary and last BUT NOT LEAST private prisons do not spend millions lobbying federal and state lawmakers to keep mandatory sentences for The War on Burglary, probably because the sentences are generally stiff enough as it is. The fact that someone has to PAY people in government to NOT say "hmm maybe this sentence is too harsh" is a pretty good indication that something is rotten in stink town.

[rvg]

I just saw a story today of a guy caught in OKC with weed. He had an ounce and was considered a dealer, even though drugs like anything else are cheaper in bulk. Furthermore, he was a lawyer, and I find it hard to believe an attorney needed to sell weed to make ends meet. Next, he was charged with owning a gun while committing a felony, and the only reason it was a felony was because they tacked "intent to distribute" on to the possession charge. And finally, my favorite, was a charge for "using a communication device while in commission of a felony" which basically means the dude used his cell phone while in possession of weed, even though the call was not made in reference to a drug deal, even the police admit this. How can anyone, even the likes of you, say that the above charges are anything remotely reasonable or fair?

You're right, this is a travesty. Punishments for possession of weed need to be toned down by an order of magnitude. That however does not imply that weed needs to be legalized. Let's make it a civil infraction, I'm down with that. Go to court, pay your $200 ticket and smoke away.

[Major Robert Dump]

A civil offense and a fine is loads better than criminalzing it. It would also mean drug tasks forces would be scaled back as the jack booted thugs will no longer invade your house solely over a civil offense. And this way, there would be tangible money made (fines) without having to figure in all the ridonkulous costs of enforcing.

However, as soon as people begin to see the money aspect of the issue, its gonna be gangbusters going legal.

Let see, we as a state can either spend loads of money enforcing and incarcerating people, in exchange for some highway funds that have all sorts of criteria and red tape attached to them, or we can legalize and tax and spend our money how we see fit while also working to disempower the drug cartels. Yay I think I will pick option 2.

The issue of marijuana will soon go the same direction as gay marriage opposition. George Will summed it up a few days ago when he said the opposition to gay marriage was, quite literally, dying.

[Idaho]

Well, drug-use is not victimless.

Let's stop thinking about this as a "war" and instead think about it as a judicial matter.

Unless you want to consider the War on Burglary.



Take a look at the history of Heroin use int eh UK - it spiked violently when it was legal.

Everything is interconnected. All action or activity can be shown to have knock on effects. The problem with recreational drug is that the worst knock on effects are directly related to prohibition.

As for increased use. The figures from societies who have removed criminal penalties have shown that long term problematic use decreases. The total number of people trying recreational drugs increases., but most try it, and don't particularly want to do it again.

[Fragony]

Everything is interconnected. All action or activity can be shown to have knock on effects. The problem with recreational drug is that the worst knock on effects are directly related to prohibition.

As for increased use. The figures from societies who have removed criminal penalties have shown that long term problematic use decreases. The total number of people trying recreational drugs increases., but most try it, and don't particularly want to do it again.

That is certainly true here, we have the lowest use in Europe for at least cannabis. There are hardly any excesses with cocaine or xtc, both of which small quantities will not get you into any trouble (they will take it from you but there won't be any charges) and heroin is virtually absent I wouldn't even know where to get it if I wanted to. Meth or Croc are non-existant.

[Kralizec]

Heroin use is less common than other use of other drugs, but I wouldn't say virtually absent. Why else would we bother with methadon distribution to heroin addicts. A common expression here is (a quantity of) "brown", i.e. heroin, as opposed to "white", i.e. cocaine.

It has gotten less and less popular though, AFAIK the people who are addicted to it tend to be fairly old.

[Fragony]

Heroin use is less common than other use of other drugs, but I wouldn't say virtually absent. Why else would we bother with methadon distribution to heroin addicts. A common expression here is (a quantity of) "brown", i.e. heroin, as opposed to "white", i.e. cocaine.

It has gotten less and less popular though, AFAIK the people who are addicted to it tend to be fairly old.

Absent relatively, it is not really a problem to speak off. Methadon keeps the few who do it from causing any trouble but it's not that unfair to call it at least almost extinct.

[Idaho]

The situation with heroin is much more pressing. We need to supply addicts with a decent, regular fix. Unregulated heroin leads to increasing numbers of users, as addicts persuade others to use in order to "go halves". Also they sometimes pay for their own use through dealing. It also creates epidemic levels of burglary. They trialled such a programme of Heroin provision in Plymouth. The burglary rate practically evaporated within a few weeks.

The other thing the study showed was that addicts could stabilise their lives, start work /education and generally sort themselves out.

Prohibition has been disastrous in this regard.

Obviously legal heroin wouldn't mean general sale. It would be prescribed and monitored. Methodone is pointless. Addicts generally don't like it and still top up with illicit heroin.

[Fragony]

The situation with heroin is much more pressing. We need to supply addicts with a decent, regular fix. Unregulated heroin leads to increasing numbers of users, as addicts persuade others to use in order to "go halves". Also they sometimes pay for their own use through dealing. It also creates epidemic levels of burglary. They trialled such a programme of Heroin provision in Plymouth. The burglary rate practically evaporated within a few weeks.

The other thing the study showed was that addicts could stabilise their lives, start work /education and generally sort themselves out.

Prohibition has been disastrous in this regard.

Obviously legal heroin wouldn't mean general sale. It would be prescribed and monitored. Methodone is pointless. Addicts generally don't like it and still top up with illicit heroin.

It's no problem anymore. The few who got addicted to it probably can never be really helped, so in most city's here we just give them enough to make it through the day, much cheaper. Methadon can help though if they really want to quit. A girlfriend of mine it worked wonders for she is completely clean now. If she will remain clean remains to be seen but so far so good. Call it shady or just being pragmatic, it works

[Idaho]

In the UK in the 60s we had a similar situation. A small and dwindling number of Heroin addicts who got the drug prescribed. Burglary and mugging were rare. Now doctors cannot prescribe it and the illegal market booms, attracting users and dealers. Burglary and mugging are common in large cities.

[Fragony]

In the UK in the 60s we had a similar situation. A small and dwindling number of Heroin addicts who got the drug prescribed. Burglary and mugging were rare. Now doctors cannot prescribe it and the illegal market booms, attracting users and dealers. Burglary and mugging are common in large cities.

Flexibility and pragmatism are a better trait than conviction and opinion imho. The latter screwed up it seems.

[Kralizec]

Obviously legal heroin wouldn't mean general sale. It would be prescribed and monitored. Methodone is pointless. Addicts generally don't like it and still top up with illicit heroin.

AFAIK methadon prevents withdrawal symptons, but is considered to be less pleasant than heroine. That's why it was considered a suitable surrogate for people who genuinely regret that they're addicted.* If the person involved is just looking for a regular influx of chemically induced euphoria then it's indeed pointless.

*the idea was originally that it could be used to cure addicts by gradually diminishing the dosage, but according to someone I know who worked professionally with drug addicts that usually doesn't work out.

[Fragony]

AFAIK methadon prevents withdrawal symptons, but is considered to be less pleasant than heroine. That's why it was considered a suitable surrogate for people who genuinely regret that they're addicted.* If the person involved is just looking for a regular influx of chemically induced euphoria then it's indeed pointless.

*the idea was originally that it could be used to cure addicts by gradually diminishing the dosage, but according to someone I know who worked professionally with drug addicts that usually doesn't work out.

As the physical addiction in only half the problem. It's basicly borderline on substances.

[Idaho]

A large number of addicts in this country came through the "care" system or have backgrounds that feature abuse. Taking away feelings feels great to them. Most people don't realise that most heroin users believe themselves to have happy lives.

[Fragony]

A large number of addicts in this country came through the "care" system or have backgrounds that feature abuse. Taking away feelings feels great to them. Most people don't realise that most heroin users believe themselves to have happy lives.

Don't mind me saying but the UK is a really depressing place to be, it aren't just the drug users that suffer from it's sadness.

[Greyblades]

Yup, we've fallen a long way since ye good olde days.

[Idaho]

Don't mind me saying but the UK is a really depressing place to be, it aren't just the drug users that suffer from it's sadness.

Thatcher cut the country's heart out. There are whole towns in the north that had their economies removed and replaced with smack.

She gave the country to the banks and squeezed the bottom to pay off the middle. Even now, middle class English, like pvc and insaneapache blame everything on the poorest.

[Greyblades]

It is the practice of those at the top to set the lower levels against each other to keep attention away from themselves.

[Major Robert Dump]

A life sentence???????????? for cooking hash???????? you could be a meth cooking rapist and get less time than that?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/2...oking-hashish/

[rvg]

It's Oklahoma, the reddest of all red states.

[Kralizec]

A life sentence???????????? for cooking hash???????? you could be a meth cooking rapist and get less time than that?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/2...oking-hashish/

Well that's a bummer. If you're unfortunate enough to end up in trial for this in your state, be sure to let us know. I remember that as a child I saw cartoons where they'd bust out an inmate by delivering a file (as in, the tool) hidden in a cake, we could try that. Want any sort of cake in particular?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In all seriousness, that's messed up: 1) upping sentences to ridiculous proportions does not work as a deterrence and 2) even if disregarding the former, this is insanely harsh

That this law passed through the Oklahoma legislature by such a large margin makes it even more disturbing.