Can't we just drop a nuke on the Vatican

[ICantSpellDawg]

Evil incarnate. We've seen this alliance at work in many states across the US. It will fail and these churches will be even more marginalized than they already are for their efforts.



Wow. Not only is he reaffirming that gay marriage is wrong according to Catholic beliefs, but he is endorsing the idea that gay people are actively trying to undermine society through some kind of plot. This is a new and dangerous level of crazy for the institution. There are still a few nuts out there that take him seriously and may see this as some sort of papal Fatwah to save civilization.

Nonsense. Evil must be stopped not with violence, but with greater goodness. Homosexuals are welcomed in church, as are tax cheats, adulterers, sex offenders, theives, mass murderers, violent video game players, bullies, illegal file sharers, torturers, gossips corporate embezzlers, abortionists, gamblers, users of pornography, alchoholics, terrorists. Those people are not defined by their sins unless they allow themselves to be. Their vices are what make them need a better relationship with God and are not celebrated - but those labels are not who they are just because they are driven to do those things. We don't kill these people (myself included, thankfully), we invite them into a more peaceful and understanding relationship with God and the world around them. There are a number of Gay people at Mass with us on Sundays. When my wife and I were living together before we got married we felt equally ashamed. Feeling shame isn't a bad thing, even when it is a result of something that you are driven to do.

My view of government is, of course, different from my spiritual views. I believe that someone can damn themselves for their sins spiritually. It doesn't make them innefective employees or bad neighbors.

[Major Robert Dump]

This is the same idiotic reasoning and idealogy held by the "holdouts" in the military who oppose the repeal of dadt. They literally overstate the effects of one of "them gays" on the overall "morale", they talk like the gay people will bring the overall moral compass of the unit down, which hetero soldiers are perfectly capable of doing without outside help, they talk like its some kind of giant plot to lower standards to make the military more like a civilian club

[lars573]

A nuke would unnecessary for wiping out Il Vaticano. It's so small a pair of laser guided conventional bombs would do the job.

[PanzerJaeger]

Nonsense. Evil must be stopped not with violence, but with greater goodness. Homosexuals are welcomed in church, as are tax cheats, adulterers, sex offenders, theives, mass murderers, violent video game players, bullies, illegal file sharers, torturers, gossips corporate embezzlers, abortionists, gamblers, users of pornography, alchoholics, terrorists. Those people are not defined by their sins unless they allow themselves to be. Their vices are what make them need a better relationship with God and are not celebrated - but those labels are not who they are just because they are driven to do those things. We don't kill these people (myself included, thankfully), we invite them into a more peaceful and understanding relationship with God and the world around them. There are a number of Gay people at Mass with us on Sundays. When my wife and I were living together before we got married we felt equally ashamed. Feeling shame isn't a bad thing, even when it is a result of something that you are driven to do.

Yes, that has been the standard line for a long time. However, by endorsing Bernheim's theory, the pope has moved firmly into Glenn Beck territory. What he is pushing now is very different than what you stated above. Gays are no longer simply stubborn sinners who refuse to accept god's teachings, but something much more sinister. In his eyes, the movement to normalize gay relationships, be it through marriage or adoption, is not an end in itself, but instead a "trojan horse" in a much larger grand scheme to undermine society as we know it and destroy humanity. That is some weird, wild stuff man, and until recently had been relegated to the more extreme religious elements within Christianity.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Yes, that has been the standard line for a long time. However, by endorsing Bernheim's theory, the pope has moved firmly into Glenn Beck territory. What he is pushing now is very different than what you stated above. Gays are no longer simply stubborn sinners who refuse to accept god's teachings, but something much more sinister. In his eyes, the movement to normalize gay relationships, be it through marriage or adoption, is not an end in itself, but instead a "trojan horse" in a much larger grand scheme to undermine society as we know it and destroy humanity. That is some weird, wild stuff man, and until recently had been relegated to the more extreme religious elements within Christianity.

Not it isn't wild. He feels the same way about violence in media, infidelity, abortion, callousness to poverty. Most Christians believe in evil and pervasive threat it presents. Ther is an evil plot to destroy your soul. The book of Revelation discusses how in the last days the Church itself will be corrupted. To a Church that believes in a literal/figurative book of Revelation, this isn't zany stuff. You've just been taken over by the beast. So have I, but by different vices and temptations. But it isn't too late for you to repent. You reject Christ. I've read posts of yours. You don't believe in the church, it's traditions or the truth it represents. Nobody is coming after you for it. The modern church realizes that the outcome is punishment enough.

If you had any understanding of what the teachings of the Church are, you wouldn't find these proclamations to be surprising.

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. . . . For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time" - JC Matt 24

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" 2 Peter

[Greyblades]

What is it with religious nuts thinking gays are evil? The heck they do to you?

[ICantSpellDawg]

What is it with religious nuts thinking gays are evil? The heck they do to you?

What is it with religious nuts thinking that God became man and died for our sins?

Gays are not evil. Homosexual sexual activity is evil. Extra-marital heterosexual sexuality is evil. They are considered mortal sins.
There is a conspiracy to foster evil through sinful activity that is highly active in our society, as it has been since the beginning of time. Man doesn't direct it, but man is complicit in it's perpetration. There is also a conspiracy to stop this evil from consuming us.

You guys think traditional Christianity is nuts. I get it. But the Church isn't a vessel on earth to punish, it is here to guide and relay the truth of being and how to be saved. It took a long time for them to figure that out, but they seem to have gotten it. It is most potent when it holds no corporal power. God's Kingdom is not of this world - the punishments for breaking the law are not of this world, although some of the consequences can be felt here as a result of your own action.

Government exists to provide freedoms to individuals so that they may live their lives and make free-will decisions. Temporal laws must exist to free people to do what they will, so long as they don't inhibit the freedom of others with their will. The Church has no such obligation - as a spiritual authority on Earth, it's laws direct which actions are good and which are not good according to God's natural law. They make a mistake when they take away free will or destroy physically transgressors - but they are right to condemn actions and call people to a better way of life.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yes, that has been the standard line for a long time. However, by endorsing Bernheim's theory, the pope has moved firmly into Glenn Beck territory. What he is pushing now is very different than what you stated above. Gays are no longer simply stubborn sinners who refuse to accept god's teachings, but something much more sinister. In his eyes, the movement to normalize gay relationships, be it through marriage or adoption, is not an end in itself, but instead a "trojan horse" in a much larger grand scheme to undermine society as we know it and destroy humanity. That is some weird, wild stuff man, and until recently had been relegated to the more extreme religious elements within Christianity.

Bernheim's study (I'm basing this purely on the quote you gave) and the Pope's remarks appear to make a distinction between the homosexual rights movement and gay people more generally. To say that the movement has an agenda is not so much conspiratorial as it is simply pointing out the nature of the thing. I don't know how far they want to take the social change, I suppose they have different schools of thought. It's wrong and unhelpful to portray either side in this debate as being necessarily in opposite ideological camps, but the homosexual rights movement's opposition to more traditional views of marriage means that they are naturally more sympathetic to various liberal ideas when it comes to gender and the family.

Gays are not evil. Homosexual sexual activity is evil.

I disagree that it is purely the act that is sinful. If you feel that you have a homosexual orientation then you are on some level still actively rebelling against the way God made you and the life you were designed to lead. To have an attraction to men and refrain from pursuing it is still sinful.

[Greyblades]

And why are homosexual acts evil?

[ICantSpellDawg]

I disagree that it is purely the act that is sinful. If you feel that you have a homosexual orientation then you are on some level still actively rebelling against the way God made you and the life you were designed to lead. To have an attraction to men and refrain from pursuing it is still sinful.

Right, thoughts can be impure, but we are judged by faith and actions. Thoughts are sinful because they lead us to our undoing. All of us are driven by temptations that will destroy us if we let them and all sins have the ability to do it, from murder to degradation of ones spouse to petty theft

[Goofball]

Nonsense. Evil must be stopped not with violence, but with greater goodness. Homosexuals are welcomed in church, as are tax cheats, adulterers, sex offenders, theives, mass murderers, violent video game players, bullies, illegal file sharers, torturers, gossips corporate embezzlers, abortionists, gamblers, users of pornography, alchoholics, terrorists. Those people are not defined by their sins unless they allow themselves to be. Their vices are what make them need a better relationship with God and are not celebrated - but those labels are not who they are just because they are driven to do those things. We don't kill these people (myself included, thankfully), we invite them into a more peaceful and understanding relationship with God and the world around them. There are a number of Gay people at Mass with us on Sundays. When my wife and I were living together before we got married we felt equally ashamed. Feeling shame isn't a bad thing, even when it is a result of something that you are driven to do.

My view of government is, of course, different from my spiritual views. I believe that someone can damn themselves for their sins spiritually. It doesn't make them innefective employees or bad neighbors.

Sorry hope I am misunderstnding you. For a minute there it seemed as if you were implying that homosexual was not only evil, but criminal, by likening homosexuals to mass murderers, sex offenders, and thieves.

Are you saying that being born with a certain sexual preference puts a person in that category?

[Ronin]

I guess the pope reads this forum.

Pope announces resignation.

when asked what he plans to do next Ratzinger simply said:
'I´m going to Disneyland'

[Greyblades]

"After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths due to an advanced age are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry,"

Indeed, I hear that the guilt of the church is a heavy burden for an old man to bear.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I guess the pope reads this forum.

Pope announces resignation.

when asked what he plans to do next Ratzinger simply said:
'I´m going to Disneyland'

Old age accompanied with poor health isn't fun, I hope he's alright.

[Montmorency]

I do not think that personal failures should result in criminal prosecution unless they cause serious harm to someone else.

Sin is sin. Some transgression begs not the cloth, but the knife.

[Greyblades]

...Homosexuality is not self-destructive, the only destruction comes from the intolerance from others and those convinced by religion that what they are is evil.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Sorry hope I am misunderstnding you. For a minute there it seemed as if you were implying that homosexual was not only evil, but criminal, by likening homosexuals to mass murderers, sex offenders, and thieves.

Are you saying that being born with a certain sexual preference puts a person in that category?

Homosexuality is very similar to alcoholism and other self destructive sins. It is your right to be an alcoholic and many people are predisposed to it. It is self destructive and a negative force in society. Not a crime, I don't believe in many crimes, but it is an affront to God as I understand it. I think that not having children is a sin. I don't particularly want them myself and it isn't a crime, but it is most certainly socially and morally wrong by my religious standards.

In a way, yes. I view anything pushes people further from God as a sin. I view sin on a static landscape. In a way, all sins are the same. We have different punishments for different crimes based on their severity, but thew wrongness of sins is on a flat line. You can be forgiven as easily for lying as you can for murder, but the temporal or criminal penance is markedly different.

I do not think that personal failures should result in criminal prosecution unless they cause serious harm to someone else.

[Beskar]

Homosexuality is very similar to alcoholism and other self destructive sins. It is your right to be an alcoholic and many people are predisposed to it. It is self destructive and a negative force in society.

Wow... you clearly haven't got the foggiest clue what you are on about.

1) Homosexuality is nothing like alcoholism.
2) Homosexuality is not self-destructive.
3) It isn't a negative force in society.

You want to know what a negative force in society? Bigotry. What bigoted people do is go around telling people they are scum. They victimize, punish and discriminate people for things which don't even affect them. They cannot stand the thought of people being happy for who they are, whether is it the colour of their skin, their sex, their sexual preference. They are people who snoop around in other peoples bedrooms, getting an authoritarian hard-on over imposing their ill-conceived beliefs on others to try to make themselves feel better, a self-congratulatory slap-on-the-back.

Homosexuality is not self-destructive in anyway, such as being Black/White/Inbetween is not self-destructive, or being a Woman is not self-destructive. People who think so should actually have a hard think and come up with a credible reason why homosexuality is bad outside of a book from the bronze age.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Wow... you clearly haven't got the foggiest clue what you are on about.

1) Homosexuality is nothing like alcoholism.
2) Homosexuality is not self-destructive.
3) It isn't a negative force in society.

You want to know what a negative force in society? Bigotry. What bigoted people do is go around telling people they are scum. They victimize, punish and discriminate people for things which don't even affect them. They cannot stand the thought of people being happy for who they are, whether is it the colour of their skin, their sex, their sexual preference. They are people who snoop around in other peoples bedrooms, getting an authoritarian hard-on over imposing their ill-conceived beliefs on others to try to make themselves feel better, a self-congratulatory slap-on-the-back.

Homosexuality is not self-destructive in anyway, such as being Black/White/Inbetween is not self-destructive, or being a Woman is not self-destructive. People who think so should actually have a hard think and come up with a credible reason why homosexuality is bad outside of a book from the bronze age.

You are advocating for the Catholic church to give up the bible. I am not a bigot inparticular. Sure, I harbor some level of cultural bigotry but I've never met a human being who didn't. I don't like to make people feel like scum, but I do recognize self harmful social effects of things like alcoholism, use of pornography, prostitution, drug use, uncharitable thoughts, glorification of violence, etc. Sins of the heart and mind which do not directly hurt anyone but the abuser. Do I condemn people who engage in these activities, no but I condemn the actions. Am I above them? No - I myself have been known to do some of these things.

As I type this, my wife and I are in South Beach at a gay hotel called "Lords". I try not to dismiss anyone or make them feel alienated, but that doesn't mean I condone their actions.

[Beskar]

I am not a bigot inparticular.

That's a good thing! Bigotry is very bad and it is very overlooked when people do a list of things bad for society, when it is the number one thing.

[ICantSpellDawg]

That's a good thing! Bigotry is very bad and it is very overlooked when people do a list of things bad for society, when it is the number one thing.

Some amount of bigotry is as natural as breathing air. We need to not allow it to cloud our opinions of the individual. With that said, it is not wrong to fight unhealthy ideas with healthy ideas. Again, i believe in gutting our legal code and our government's hold over us and allowing people to exercise their free will to the maximum extent - let the natural consequences dissuade us from bad actions. This does not stop me from determining which actions and thoughts i view as unhealthy for the individual, it would just stop society from binding free will in law.