Irish, and other minority languages

[Populus Romanus]

So I was reading up about the Irish language recently, and at first I thought it was rather sad that the language is disappearing from Ireland. However, on second thought, does anyone even care? Its an awful waste of time, from my perspective at least, because Irish seems to be pretty doomed and the dominance of English on the island is secure. Why do people get so worked up about these small languages? Is it nationalism or political correctness or multiculturalism that motivates people to "preserve" minority languages such as Irish, Occitan, Breton, Scots, Basque*, Catalan*, Welsh, etc.? And finally, is it worth all the effort?

*not sure if these really fit with the others as they seem to be doing fine on their own

[Fragony]

The Frysians still have their own language here, all but the older people also speak Dutch. I would be sad if it completely dies, just as it is sad when an animal-species gets extinct.

Edit, talk about language, I doubt you can spot where Dutch ends and Jiddish begins, I doubt that even the Dutchies here can http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pr4erUiuWYM

[Sarmatian]

Language is a pretty important part of national identity, so people naturally tend to preserve it.

[HopAlongBunny]

Definitely worth preserving.

We lose something in the way of knowledge and expression when a language dies.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So I was reading up about the Irish language recently, and at first I thought it was rather sad that the language is disappearing from Ireland. However, on second thought, does anyone even care? Its an awful waste of time, from my perspective at least, because Irish seems to be pretty doomed and the dominance of English on the island is secure. Why do people get so worked up about these small languages? Is it nationalism or political correctness or multiculturalism that motivates people to "preserve" minority languages such as Irish, Occitan, Breton, Scots, Basque*, Catalan*, Welsh, etc.? And finally, is it worth all the effort?

*not sure if these really fit with the others as they seem to be doing fine on their own

Funny how the vast majority of those languages are either Brythonic or Gailic (Catalan is not a minority language).

A question for you - how do you propose to read Irish poetry without knowing any Irish?

[Populus Romanus]

Funny how the vast majority of those languages are either Brythonic or Gailic (Catalan is not a minority language).

A question for you - how do you propose to read Irish poetry without knowing any Irish?

I wouldn't be able to. But that wouldn't bother me, as much Irish poetry and other literature is already translated or being translated into English. If you can get a poem in Irish or in English, and everybody speaks English, why bother keeping the Irish version around? No reason. Eventually, after the last Irish speaker dies, no new Irish poetry will be created, anyways.

[gaelic cowboy]

So I was reading up about the Irish language recently, and at first I thought it was rather sad that the language is disappearing from Ireland. However, on second thought, does anyone even care? Its an awful waste of time, from my perspective at least, because Irish seems to be pretty doomed and the dominance of English on the island is secure. Why do people get so worked up about these small languages? Is it nationalism or political correctness or multiculturalism that motivates people to "preserve" minority languages such as Irish, Occitan, Breton, Scots, Basque*, Catalan*, Welsh, etc.? And finally, is it worth all the effort?

*not sure if these really fit with the others as they seem to be doing fine on their own

Mar sin, bhí mé ag léamh suas thart ar an nGaeilge le déanaí, agus ar dtús shíl mé go raibh sé in áit brónach go bhfuil an teanga ag imeacht as Éirinn. Mar sin féin, ar an dara machnaimh, an bhfuil duine ar bith a cúram fiú? A chuid an dramhaíl uafásach ama, ó mo thaobhsa ar a laghad, is é mar is cosúil Gaeilge a dar críoch go leor agus an ceannas an Bhéarla ar an oileán slán. Cén fáth a dhéanamh a fháil daoine a d'oibrigh chomh suas thart ar na teangacha beaga? An bhfuil sé náisiúnachas nó cruinneas polaitíochta nó ilchultúrachas gur féidir le daoine motivates go "chaomhnú" mionteangacha ar nós Gaeilge, Ocsatáinis, Briotáinis, Albanach, Bascais *, Catalóinis *, Breatnais, etc? Agus ar deireadh, tá fiú go léir ar an iarracht?

* Ní cinnte má na oiriúnach i ndáiríre leis na daoine eile mar is cosúil leo a bheith ag déanamh fíneáil ar a gcuid féin


Beidh Google smaoineamh ar na héireann a bheith thart ar feadh tamaill


Irish wont be disappearing anytime soon when there is plenty people living in gaeltachts who can still speak it and indeed plenty make a living from the language.

[gaelic cowboy]

I wouldn't be able to. But that wouldn't bother me, as much Irish poetry and other literature is already translated or being translated into English. If you can get a poem in Irish or in English, and everybody speaks English, why bother keeping the Irish version around? No reason. Eventually, after the last Irish speaker dies, no new Irish poetry will be created, anyways.

The reason is because poetry is meant to be read aloud the sounds of the words themselves are very important.

It would probably take hundreds years for the last irish speaker to die off, and even then the poetry will still hark back to something older.

it will be here for a whileen seeing as there doing the weather in irish

[jirisys]

I have wanted to learn Gaeilge eta Euskara for quite some time now. i have a thing for minority languages.

Euskara is not doing that well, not many basques speak it, although it's doing better than Gaeilge.

Also, wouldn't that argument also make the teaching of latin moot?

~Jirisys ()

[Noncommunist]

Funny how the vast majority of those languages are either Brythonic or Gailic (Catalan is not a minority language).

A question for you - how do you propose to read Irish poetry without knowing any Irish?

Endangered languages in western Europe are probably better known than those in other lands?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I wouldn't be able to. But that wouldn't bother me, as much Irish poetry and other literature is already translated or being translated into English. If you can get a poem in Irish or in English, and everybody speaks English, why bother keeping the Irish version around? No reason. Eventually, after the last Irish speaker dies, no new Irish poetry will be created, anyways.

You're right - you wouldn't be able to - you just be able to read the translation.

Remember when I quoted some Latin without translation and we got three separate English versions, which meant three different things?

The translation is not the same as the original - if you could read the original you'd realise how wretched the translation was and how it doesn't really convey the meaning very well at all. This goes for all translations - it is why we learn other languages.

If you can only read a translation you are dependent on someone else's understanding of the original, when no one can understand the original it cannot be re-translated - and then it is lost.

Endangered languages in western Europe are probably better known than those in other lands?

There are dialects of German that are dying out, Slavic and Finnish tongues that are near-extinct. It's interesting how the American's idea of "dying" languages is largely confined to the subject peoples who were under the English boot.

It says something about P.R. view of history.

[Papewaio]

I find it interesting that a lot of the best English teachers I had were either Scot or Irish.

Maybe being bilingual improves their understanding of both languages.

[gaelic cowboy]

There are dialects of German that are dying out, Slavic and Finnish tongues that are near-extinct. It's interesting how the American's idea of "dying" languages is largely confined to the subject peoples who were under the English boot.

It says something about P.R. view of history.

I wouldn't consider the Irish language to be in danger of linguistic extinction there is easily a million people can speak Irish globally.


there is even plenty yanks that can speak it

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I find it interesting that a lot of the best English teachers I had were either Scot or Irish.

Maybe being bilingual improves their understanding of both languages.

That's a generally accepted truth - the more languages you speak the better.

I wouldn't consider the Irish language to be in danger of linguistic extinction there is easily a million people can speak Irish globally.

Neither would I - Welsh has not been in any danger for at least 20 years either.

[Populus Romanus]

I wouldn't consider the Irish language to be in danger of linguistic extinction there is easily a million people can speak Irish globally.

I thought that the number of first language speakers and fluent speakers was declining. I wouldn't really consider a language that is only known, not spoken or used by the general population for any purpose other than the arts, to be healthy or safe at all. But I was being a bit sensationalist when I mentioned Irish going extinct.

There are dialects of German that are dying out, Slavic and Finnish tongues that are near-extinct. It's interesting how the American's idea of "dying" languages is largely confined to the subject peoples who were under the English boot.

It says something about P.R. view of history.

I don't cackle with glee at the thought of languages disappearing from common use. Rather it is a sad, inevitable reality. May as well embrace it now and get over with it.

But this isn't just about dying languages, either. Its about minority languages. I just listed off the ones that were the first to come to my mind, which may or may not have been influenced by the fact that I'm American. In fact, I can't believe I forgot Eastern Europe in the OP, because that is where the issue of minority languages is probably most relevant. Need I mention Yugoslavia?

[gaelic cowboy]

I thought that the number of first language speakers and fluent speakers was declining. I wouldn't really consider a language that is only known, not spoken or used by the general population for any purpose other than the arts, to be healthy or safe at all. But I was being a bit sensationalist when I mentioned Irish going extinct.I don't cackle with glee at the thought of languages disappearing from common use. Rather it is a sad, inevitable reality. May as well embrace it now and get over with it.

native speakers means people from the gaeltacht areas which are specific places in ireland but there is way more speak it than that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I thought that the number of first language speakers and fluent speakers was declining. I wouldn't really consider a language that is only known, not spoken or used by the general population for any purpose other than the arts, to be healthy or safe at all. But I was being a bit sensationalist when I mentioned Irish going extinct.

That's a simplistic view of language - First-language is meaningful if you don't have a second language. As some here know, I lived with a crazy Welsh girl a few years ago... she was completely nuts (but very sweet) and we used to fight a lot. Despite her first language being Welsh and English being her Second she only swore at me in Welsh what she was really angry. I'd regularly find her reading not only English novels, but French and German ones as well.

Granted, this is an extreme example - but the point still stands. The cowboy just wrote you a post in Irish Gaelic and I doubt he need a dictionary to do it. If there are a million native Irish speakers and many more speak the language day-to-day in one capacity or another it's very much alive.

I don't cackle with glee at the thought of languages disappearing from common use. Rather it is a sad, inevitable reality. May as well embrace it now and get over with it.

Well - once upon a time the modern vernaculars were "minority" languages and Latin was the majority language - a state which continued into the early medieval period. There's evidence that the majority of the clergy and many of the aristocracy were bi-lingual, and the bias wasn't always towards the "modern" language.

You also don't understand the crucial point - languages can be saved, with a bit of effort. Even Latin is gradually undergoing something of a revival (contrary to popular belief the language never "died" it has been continuously spoken for the last 1500 years).

But this isn't just about dying languages, either. Its about minority languages. I just listed off the ones that were the first to come to my mind, which may or may not have been influenced by the fact that I'm American. In fact, I can't believe I forgot Eastern Europe in the OP, because that is where the issue of minority languages is probably most relevant. Need I mention Yugoslavia?

Actually - the issue is most acute in places like the Pacific Islands, Central Africa and Australasia.

[Noncommunist]

You also don't understand the crucial point - languages can be saved, with a bit of effort. Even Latin is gradually undergoing something of a revival (contrary to popular belief the language never "died" it has been continuously spoken for the last 1500 years).

While it was spoken continuously, it also was a liturgical language like Hebrew. So while it may have been spoken, it wasn't exactly a normal language for long time.

[Fragony]

Irish ( gaelic I assume) sounds awesome. Heard it's one of the oldest living languages

[Beskar]

I read an article similar to this the otherday on the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20716344


@gaelic cowboy
I also noticed the weather woman started talking about the "Irish Empire", what is she talking about when she mentions this?
[14-15 seconds within the clip]

[Kralizec]

I do not particulary care either way. I do think that languages of historical, native minorities should be allowed and supported (i.e. bilingual education for the Catalans, Frysians and whatnot). Not doing so would be political persecution.

But if a language goes extinct anyway, meh. As an example, a lot of my family members are Frysian and I can usually understand them quite well, but not speak it myself. In the Frysian province it has complete equality with the Dutch language. As it happens most Frysians can’t write particulary well in “their” language, although they can speak and read it. If Frysian dies out it’s because they themselves can’t be arsed to maintain their language, and I’m not going to feel sad about it on their behalf.

For that matter, I don’t think that the demise of the Dutch language is a really dreadful prospect either unless it’s due to some extinction event, genocide or whatever. Languages have gone extinct and new ones sprung up for the entirety of human history. I don’t see why the future should be different in that respect.

[Beskar]

Personally, I think we should do a new alphabet, perhaps based on the principles of the Shavian alphabet (at least 40 letters; as phonetic as possible with letters having a 1:1 correspondence to sounds). Then create a global language loosely based on English words as that is the current lingua franca. All other languages are secondary and optional but everyone is taught the new primary language and all signs and labels across the world adopt it. That would create a global melting pot where everyone can converse and we can also structure a language for a modern and future world.

[Hax]

They kinda tried that, didn't they? Didn't really work in the end.

[Fragony]

I do not particulary care either way. I do think that languages of historical, native minorities should be allowed and supported (i.e. bilingual education for the Catalans, Frysians and whatnot). Not doing so would be political persecution.

But if a language goes extinct anyway, meh. As an example, a lot of my family members are Frysian and I can usually understand them quite well, but not speak it myself. In the Frysian province it has complete equality with the Dutch language. As it happens most Frysians can’t write particulary well in “their” language, although they can speak and read it. If Frysian dies out it’s because they themselves can’t be arsed to maintain their language, and I’m not going to feel sad about it on their behalf.

For that matter, I don’t think that the demise of the Dutch language is a really dreadful prospect either unless it’s due to some extinction event, genocide or whatever. Languages have gone extinct and new ones sprung up for the entirety of human history. I don’t see why the future should be different in that respect.

My family from my mother's side is Frysian, I don't speak it though. For practical uses I wouldn't mind if we just switched to English, but the loss of the the Dutch language would be a sour one, you will never be able to fully express yourself in a foreign language. We may think we speak english, but we really don't, all we can do is translating it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

While it was spoken continuously, it also was a liturgical language like Hebrew. So while it may have been spoken, it wasn't exactly a normal language for long time.

That's actually a bit of a misconception - until about 1700 you were expected to speak Latin at dinner in Oxford and as late as the early 1900's members of Parliament in the UK were assumed to understand it, as were lawyers.

[Fragony]

That's actually a bit of a misconception - until about 1700 you were expected to speak Latin at dinner in Oxford

Nah, nobody even knows what latin sounds like.

[Beskar]

They kinda tried that, didn't they? Didn't really work in the end.

Esperanto was never fully supported. It would require institutional implementation and that never occurred anywhere.

[Tellos Athenaios]

There's absolutely no point in trying to build an international language, based on "English" because it is a "lingua franca". For starters the whole idea is built on a number of misconceptions:

• That a lingua franca can possibly work as a first language for everyone when you already have established languages.
• That this lingua franca could be created by design.
• That this language is English, or that English is a good basis for it.
• That this would be necessary or desirable.

[HoreTore]

All languages except English should go down the toilet as fast as possible.

One world - One language.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nah, nobody even knows what latin sounds like.

Nobody know what Classical Latin sounds like, exactly, but nobody knows what Shakespeare sounded like, exactly, either.

Esperanto was never fully supported. It would require institutional implementation and that never occurred anywhere.

There's a reason for that - it was pointless.

We have a Lingua Franca - it's called English, before that it was called Latin. Demanding that everyone have the same first language is like demanding the tide not come in. as soon as you've forcibly purged all the other languages your new super-language will begin to diverge.