Can't we just drop a nuke on the Vatican

[Ironside]

We've made such a mockery out of what marriage was supposed to be about, it really doesn't matter who gets married at this point.

I say let the gays get married and make it a federal law so we can do it once and be done with. I am growing so tired of this "o woe is me" crap coming from a section of LGBT movement. On the scale of social justice gay marriage represents an absolute 0 and is nothing more than a product of the new notion of marrying for love. The family unit is the bedrock of any stable society and it's breaking under the strain of all the little Kings clamoring that their needs aren't being met.

Equality is not for everyone.

The notion of marrying for love has been a viable idea for about 400 years, even if it didn't start to become common until much later.

[HoreTore]

The family unit is the bedrock of a stable society?

What kind of conservative hillbilly nonsense is that?

You claim "the family" is breaking up. Thus, we should be experiencing an unstable society, or at least a less stable society. I agree. World wars, race riots, hippies, colonization and rampant racism are all sure signs of a stable society. Things were much better back in the days when people stayed married.



You can do better than parroting radio catchphrases, SFTS.

[Beskar]

"Gay marriage is breaking up the family unit!"
*cheats on wife with another woman, marriage breaks up*

[Rhyfelwyr]

The family unit is the bedrock of a stable society?

Without necessarily tying this to the gay marriage issue, the above statement is by and large true. It is the sole environment that has historically allowed children to be raised well with some degree of emotional and financial stability. And of course there are the economic and personal benefits of people living together as couples that IMO would be extremely difficult to replicate with any other sort of communal living arrangement.

"Gay marriage is breaking up the family unit!"
*cheats on wife with another woman, marriage breaks up*

Overcompensation of the part of the occasional Republican candidate aside, there is a serious class issue here, in that the regions most perceptive to the religious and socially conservative Right tend to be those experiencing the highest levels of social breakdown in terms of the family unit, and they also tend to be the poorest. In America, your "White Trash", or the UK, the benefit-dependent underclass.

[HoreTore]

Without necessarily tying this to the gay marriage issue, the above statement is by and large true. It is the sole environment that has historically allowed children to be raised well with some degree of emotional and financial stability. And of course there are the economic and personal benefits of people living together as couples that IMO would be extremely difficult to replicate with any other sort of communal living arrangement.

So....

You want to go back to the time when we had world wars, exterminations and laws based on race? Or should we perhaps scrap the notion of "the family unit" and get down to the things that actually matter in a society, which is employment and class?

We behaved like barbarians when "the family unit" was stable. We are not as barbaric now that "the family unit" has disintegrated. These are facts.

[Greyblades]

Funny how the future was predicted to remove the need for employment and class...

[Husar]

Funny how the future was predicted to remove the need for employment and class...

Yes, funny, the need for class will always be there. Men will want class because women will want men of a higher class and humans value themselves relative to others in many cases. It's an eternal struggle that will never end until our governments can control our thoughts. Once that happens there will still be class since the government will be above us in class but at least we won't think about it because the government can control that.

[Conradus]

We behaved like barbarians when "the family unit" was stable. We are not as barbaric now that "the family unit" has disintegrated. These are facts.

Yeah, but are those related?

[Rhyfelwyr]

So....

You want to go back to the time when we had world wars, exterminations and laws based on race? Or should we perhaps scrap the notion of "the family unit" and get down to the things that actually matter in a society, which is employment and class?

We behaved like barbarians when "the family unit" was stable. We are not as barbaric now that "the family unit" has disintegrated. These are facts.

Um... all those things happened because we were at a completely different point in human history.

Look... it is well known that there is a strong link between broken families, and kids that get into trouble with things ranging from drugs, poor academic performance, child abuse, gang violence, lack of social mobility etc. Furthermore, there is every reason to believe that this relationship is one of causation and not just correlation, as the family situation itself actually explains why kids can become involved or trapped in these things in the first place.This is common knowledge and indeed common sense, although I will look up the links if you insist. Certainly, tacking these issues are a big part of modern-day social policies, this is not some ideological left-right dispute. Indeed, it is the left that naturally shows the most interest in tacking these problems in poorer communities.

Also, this is a class issue, since as I already said, these problems disproportionately affect working-class communities. The relationship between poverty and social problems is not all one way, one propagates the other. You have to address both.

[Kival]

Look... it is well known that there is a strong link between broken families, and kids that get into trouble with things ranging from drugs, poor academic performance, child abuse, gang violence, lack of social mobility etc.

A) What exactly is a broken family?

B) I'm not exactly sure which correlation you claim to be "common knowledge". Divorce causing child abuse? Divorce leading to gang violence? And in which context do you claim this to be true? Only for the lower classes? And what are you comparing? Children with divorced parents with children who never experienced divorce? Wouldn't it be more sensible to take only families who experienced a servere conflict between the parents and compare children of these families whose parents divorced (Group 1) or stayed together despite the problems (Group 2)?

This is common knowledge and indeed common sense, although I will look up the links if you insist.

I do indeed insist. Though maybe my disagreement may be solved when I understand better what you mean with "broken family".

BTW there were enough cultures where children were not raised by both parents but e.g. by the mother and her brothers and sisters. How can you be sure that the two biological parent model is superior?

[Rhyfelwyr]

A) What exactly is a broken family?

One where the relationship between the parents falls apart, or where they fail to fulfil their basic parental duties (whether it is due to alcoholism, drugs, being in prison, or whatever).

B) I'm not exactly sure which correlation you claim to be "common knowledge". Divorce causing child abuse? Divorce leading to gang violence? And in which context do you claim this to be true? Only for the lower classes? And what are you comparing? Children with divorced parents with children who never experienced divorce? Wouldn't it be more sensible to take only families who experienced a servere conflict between the parents and compare children of these families whose parents divorced (Group 1) or stayed together despite the problems (Group 2)?

The correlation is between negligent/poor parenting and/or an unhappy household on the one hand, and children becoming involved in bad things on the other. As to your last question there, I am not suggesting that hapless marriages should not end in divorce, or that staying together would be good for their children. I am simply saying that an unhealthy relationship between the parents will often have some sort of effect on the children.

I do indeed insist. Though maybe my disagreement may be solved when I understand better what you mean with "broken family".

Well hopefully I explained what I meant there above. tbh, I never had a specific study in mind. If you just google things like "relationship between parenting/divorce and delinquency/anti-social behaviour, there's and endless supply of studies that, at a glance, all seem to indicate at least some degree of correlation. They also tend to discuss the issue of causation.

BTW there were enough cultures where children were not raised by both parents but e.g. by the mother and her brothers and sisters. How can you be sure that the two biological parent model is superior?

Of course these ways can work, but I see them more as variations on the nuclear family take (in the sense that the bonds are still essentially biological), rather than something else entirely. Grandparents, aunts and uncles etc can of course have varying roles of involvement in bringing up children, and they can also provide a safety net should something happen to the parents. I've never heard someone seriously argue that foster care was the best way to raise a kid.

[Montmorency]

We behaved like barbarians when "the family unit" was stable. We are not as barbaric now that "the family unit" has disintegrated. These are facts.

1. We still behave like "barbarians".
2. The family unit was never stable.

But hypothetically, if the family unit were made stable in the contemporary period we would see social dividends. Then again, perhaps it would rather be a product of those dividends. Still worth a shot.

But the point here is that you're wrong, so suck it! :)

Once that happens there will still be class since the government will be above us in class but at least we won't think about it because the government can control that.

The principle of it is quite simple: Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer.

To elaborate: the People become the State, and the State become the People. The State become reducible to a single entity. The People become reducible to a single entity.

Basically, the species becomes a single Meta-Human, named the Autokrator. The Human Hive-Mind would be a stepping-stone to this goal.

[Strike For The South]

"Gay marriage is breaking up the family unit!"
*cheats on wife with another woman, marriage breaks up*

The latter is much more harmful than the former.

One only needs to look at the numbers.

[Sir Moody]

I have always been puzzled by the assertion that Gay Marriage breaks up the family unit... It isn't like many currently married couples are suddenly going to collapse so a partner can enter a gay union

DIVORCE broke up the family unit and more specifically the change in the social acceptance for Women to Divorce

Back in the day a Woman was expected to stick with the marriage through thick and thin and would be socially ostracized if she tired to get out - now that just isn't the case anymore in most the Western World and that is why we see an increased number of "Broken" families - because it isn't a social faux pa to cut and run if it isn't working out

As to why its effecting a certain class more than the others - the "Working" class in particular have always been vulnerable to Drink, Drugs, Violence and (probably most importantly since it generally leads to the others) Poverty - all of which are significant causes of divorces

[Idaho]

I have always been puzzled by the assertion that Gay Marriage breaks up the family unit... It isn't like many currently married couples are suddenly going to collapse so a partner can enter a gay union

DIVORCE broke up the family unit and more specifically the change in the social acceptance for Women to Divorce

Back in the day a Woman was expected to stick with the marriage through thick and thin and would be socially ostracized if she tired to get out - now that just isn't the case anymore in most the Western World and that is why we see an increased number of "Broken" families - because it isn't a social faux pa to cut and run if it isn't working out

As to why its effecting a certain class more than the others - the "Working" class in particular have always been vulnerable to Drink, Drugs, Violence and (probably most importantly since it generally leads to the others) Poverty - all of which are significant causes of divorces

Eh? It's all women's fault? How do you work that one out?

[Greyblades]

Ehhh, unfortunately that works the other way too, for each gay guy not competing there's a woman who is uninterested.

[Sir Moody]

Eh? It's all women's fault? How do you work that one out?

you read all of that and came out that I was suggesting it was the Woman's fault?

I was attempting to explain why we have seen an increase in "failed" marriages not attempting to attribute blame

Divorce used to be the province of Men - there was no social stigma for Men to divorce and so marriages would generally only end when the Man decided it would - since the stigma Women suffered under has now gone they have no compunction to stay in a bad marriage and so we have seen more divorces

Personally I think the whole "Family unit" idea is completely outdated and it cant have been good to be stuck in a family where both parents hated each other but stayed married to save face...