I'm getting real tired with the extreme individualism.

[Montmorency]

Freedom, freedom, freedom: one of the greatest myths of all time.

It is easy to rail against the tyranny you see, but how about the tyrannies that are invisible?

Truly, it is not the whip so much as the hand that wields it which fools resent.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Government has no moral authority, no matter how much it tries to convey it.

Oh you make this too easy. This has been well and truly studied, basically, settled political science since about "The Social Contract". Government is a bargain between people, a quid pro quo. Moreover it is also a bargain between individuals (you, me) and the rest (the forum). This where government gets its moral authority over you: that is you have to live up to your end of the bargain, and in representing the rest of us government does not have to accept you not meeting your obligations under the deal. Which include that you shall pay whatever taxes the government damn well imposes on you. It's a little more complicated that this, but we're already at a considerably more accurate view of how the world works than whatever is in your post.

So from the fact that you have an obligation towards the rest of us, we as represented by the government have a moral authority to remind you and seek redress if you don't.

It has power authority, the old fashioned kind where we do what it says because it says. In the modern era, where we supposedly create the state, it is becoming increasingly clear that we must limit it to the lowest common denominator need. As those needs change, so should government.

This is quite clearly contrary to pretty much everything ever written about the history of mankind. Next thing you tell me we'll eventually end up being hunter gatherers again.

No: the story of humanity is the story of ever more complex organisation as a function of the scale of populations. Unless you propose we reduce population numbers drastically you will continue to be wrong. You mistake government for laws dictating what you can and cannot do, but government is far more than that. Its main job is actually maintaining low level organisation of its people, enabling them to get together and do useful things, the laws are merely a side effect.

First on the agenda is breaking down the government's arbitrary moral hold on what it has no business being involved in and has no actual moral authority over.
Second on the agenda is determining the core requirements that we as individuals are better served by keeping in the public realm. This should change and we should be cutting the governments role where it is no longer needed or becoming a burden (the postal service, certain drug enforcement, etc)
I want a basic and modular government. Should there be zoning to keep explosions from destroying a town? Should financial services be regulated to avoid massive scale abuses of investors? Should there be laws against killing, stealing finite objects? Yes, Yes, Yes.
Should the government make most drugs illegal, recognize the institution of marriage, outlaw firearms, recognize holidays, give tax breaks for desired behavior, etc? No, No, No.

And this, has nothing to do with the size and complexity of government. At all. It's just a bunch of antiquated rules, they can be enforced, struck or rewritten as society sees fit. Government is about all the basic services which you take for granted so much you hardly notice them. Like traffic lights, for instance.

[HopAlongBunny]

The George Carlin bit I posted might seem flippant but he illustrates the point so nicely.

In the USA (and Canada) people were stripped of their rights and marched off to concentration camps for the crime of being born to people of the wrong race. That is what your rights are worth; they exist at the pleasure of the government.

The latest manifestation might be being labelled as an "Enemy Combatant" or "Terrorist". The government can make any distinction it chooses really; rights are a fiction that exist only so long as it is useful and disappear when they get in the way.

[Husar]

rights are a fiction that exist only so long as it is useful and disappear when they get in the way.

The same is true for the value of money, nation states, love and other things that only exist as long as individuals or a group of individuals want them to exist. If your government can easily take all of them away, it's probably a sign of too much complacency. If the government does not represent the will of the people it's because the people let it. The government only exists as long as the people want it. It has authority because the people accept it. The power of the government and the money of the government are given by the people, so without the people giving it that, the government has no leverage.

[HopAlongBunny]

If your government can easily take all of them away, it's probably a sign of too much complacency. If the government does not represent the will of the people it's because the people let it.

Actually it's part of our Constitution :p The "Notwithstanding Clause" was part of the deal that was struck to pass the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I would be very surprised to learn of a government that does not have a similar mechanism.

I agree with your post however; Bokononism might be a fictional philosophy but it has application in real-life

[Tellos Athenaios]

Actually it's part of our Constitution :p The "Notwithstanding Clause" was part of the deal that was struck to pass the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I would be very surprised to learn of a government that does not have a similar mechanism.

I agree with your post however; Bokononism might be a fictional philosophy but it has application in real-life

Actually it is a lot easier in the parts of the world that were inspired by English law, than it would be in most of the rest of the world. Habeas corpus and related rights can be easily suspended (and have been, quite often) by the simple expedient of getting the powers that be to agree on that and pass the relevant act. (This has happened quite often, for example in the USA during the Bush admin in 2006.) However, in countries with a more sane legal tradition (and by sane, I mean leaving less to a vague notion of "established practice") there is typically a constitution which grants rights and is binding. This means that a simple act to temporarily suspend the equivalent of habeas corpus is out of the question. It requires something quite a bit more drastic to get around constitutional protections here.

[The Lurker Below]

[QUOTE=a completely inoffensive name;2053522748]Looking back on what I wrote. I think I initially wanted to talk about much people my age are annoying me QUOTE]

don't feel bad, people your age annoy me sometimes as well. throw in the people my age and the people my pops age that frequently act like the people your age and that makes a lot of annoying people.

I'm just sorry you hate your freedom loving libertarian friends. Lots of us here seem very quick to protect the unwanted pregnant girls who volunteer to have their bodies brutally intruded yet they also want to deny their smoker friends the right to inhale some gases. :(

[Greyblades]

I'm just sorry you hate your freedom loving libertarian friends. Lots of us here seem very quick to protect the unwanted pregnant girls who volunteer to have their bodies brutally intruded yet they also want to deny their smoker friends the right to inhale some gases. :(

We care not for the smoke they inhale but the huge medical bills they incur for those frequently around them, for us with socialised medicine it is particularly annoying as we have to pay thier own bills on top of it!

[Major Robert Dump]

I believe this nation borrows a billion dollars a day to operate.
Despite that, everyone still wants a piece,
Those who need to make sacrifice need to be someone besides me because (insert reason here)

The OP criticism of the guy is valid because the guy is really bitching for nothing. There is really no point to whine except to whine. Nothing will change,
Yet, the OP should also understand that they guy has every right to be concerned. Because nothing will change.


We are living on credit. There is no way out. Every day we spend loads of money and stupid crap like Cowboy Poetry Museums, Congressional Staff Banquets, etc. The President had a R&B show live from the White House LOL. We run the DOD through contracting methods that reward people to work as slowly and inefficiently as humanly possible. We stack state and federal agencies with dumb laws that take more people to enforce all for the sake of some vague political idea, like a "hate crimes" and and drug laws and farm subsidies and terrorism laws that consider harmless chlorine bombs as WMDs. It just goes on and on and on and on, I won't even get started in the financial sector laws. It's all just so retarded. So much of our economy revolves around accounting tricks and reorganization and financial sector fees. It's comical. We couldnt even do socialized medicine right with a single payer system and instead had to pass a huge amount of costs on to the employers, I mean WTF?

I recall someone on these boards once saying that the actual value of Americans and their assets still exceeds the national debt, which makes us okay. Don't recall who that was, but anymore that sounds like some real Greece-ey rationalization.

I think I said something like "we used to be an nation who could fist fight, and now we just pencil whip" to which ACIN responded that we are always developing new tech that will make us money and make life easier..... the problem with "new tech" is that tech streamlines, it puts people out of jobs, more jobs are always lost from the old tech than jobs gained for new tech, this is the way of evolution. I'm not saying that we should not go down that path, I am simply saying that in conjunction with everything else -- like the fact that we IMPORT everything because we need cheap stuff to support our fat ass way of life, and that a fifth of the nation is employed in the financial sector.

Unless we go to war with China and get reset to zero (which would really, honestly just make Washington do it all over again), or unless we discover the next oil, I simply do not see how we can continue down the same path without people getting screwed really, really, really bad at some point. I'm not being some doomsday guy and saying the nation is going to collapse into a pile of ashes, but at some point things are going to get real bad, real quick, for certain groups of people.

That is my pessimistic post for today. Carry on.

[Greyblades]

So... is there anything that can be realistically done about it?

I'm guessing no, but I'm still asking.

[Husar]

I'm just sorry you hate your freedom loving libertarian friends. Lots of us here seem very quick to protect the unwanted pregnant girls who volunteer to have their bodies brutally intruded yet they also want to deny their smoker friends the right to inhale some gases. :(

They can inhale whatever they want as long as they don't exhale it into my face. So either stop exhaling until the smoke has settled or get filters for your nostrils and we're fine.
Or find another addiction, like alcohol.

Unless we go to war with China and get reset to zero (which would really, honestly just make Washington do it all over again), or unless we discover the next oil, I simply do not see how we can continue down the same path without people getting screwed really, really, really bad at some point. I'm not being some doomsday guy and saying the nation is going to collapse into a pile of ashes, but at some point things are going to get real bad, real quick, for certain groups of people.

I've been saying that for a while. Can we be doomsday buddies?

[LittleGrizzly]

Not sure what the case is over in the USA but in the UK it occasionally comes up that we should pay to cover our medical bills....

My only problem being that is why there is so much tax on cigs in the first place, because of the health problems. I imagine most people more than cover their expenses. Although I am guessing it may be a little different in the USA?

[Papewaio]

So... is there anything that can be realistically done about it?

I'm guessing no, but I'm still asking.

Yes you can get out of this situation.

Prioritize expenditure into
Needs (Non-elective Mediciene)
Investments (Education)
Wants (Cowboy Poetry)

Choose how you get the cash ie borrow or user pays (China or Taxes).