responding to common objections to bible

[Rhyfelwyr]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...-2013033064361

Obviously those questions were meant to be rhetorical, but strictly speaking, a lot of Christians would be effectively excluded from many official positions because they are either outright barred, or have to take oaths in conflict with their beliefs.

Although most of these issues would affect atheists as well.

We are a constitutional monarchy after all, our head of state is also head of the established church.

[Kadagar_AV]

He is everywhere... in the heavens and Earth.
He makes the stars shine, yet He cannot be seen.
He is noble, abundant, and fills the universe.
He can lift you into the sky and bring you gently down.
He can take many forms.
He can heal. He can kill.
He can help create, and He can help destroy.

Praise be unto He.
Helium.

He He He....

Also great at parties, I might add.

[Kadagar_AV]

Obviously those questions were meant to be rhetorical, but strictly speaking, a lot of Christians would be effectively excluded from many official positions because they are either outright barred, or have to take oaths in conflict with their beliefs.

Although most of these issues would affect atheists as well.

We are a constitutional monarchy after all, our head of state is also head of the established church.

I honestly think it's good that politicians don't let their religious side cloud their ability. In Sweden, we just had a politician who got sacked because he was also chairman for an Islamist organization. Main argument was that he couldn't reasonably be able to uphold the women's view of both organizations at the same time.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I honestly think it's good that politicians don't let their religious side cloud their ability.

Maybe so, but I wasn't talking about that.

I'm saying that in the UK, you have to swear allegiance to the Queen, who also happens to be head of the established Anglican Church, in order to do a whole host of things, from being a MP, to a policeman, to serving in the army, etc.

Some Christians and indeed atheists might not be happy with that.

For some positions the discrimination is even more outright. For example, you have to be in communion with the Church of England to be monarch.

In Sweden, we just had a politician who got sacked because he was also chairman for an Islamist organization. Main argument was that he couldn't reasonably be able to uphold the women's view of both organizations at the same time.

This happened in Sweden?!?!

[Kadagar_AV]

Maybe so, but I wasn't talking about that.

I'm saying that in the UK, you have to swear allegiance to the Queen, who also happens to be head of the established Anglican Church, in order to do a whole host of things, from being a MP, to a policeman, to serving in the army, etc.

Some Christians and indeed atheists might not be happy with that.

For some positions the discrimination is even more outright. For example, you have to be in communion with the Church of England to be monarch.

I see your point, but the base of it isn't OK in my view. The problem here is that the Queen, and England, still have an official religion that clearly is allowed to operate within the state, and with the state.

I think religion and politics should be far, FAR, apart.

We don't want to be USA dumb

You know, separate fact from fiction and all that. I am not saying politicians, teachers, lawyers and so on can't be religious. I am saying I would be the first to write "dumb" on their foreheads if they ever let it inspire their work life.

This happened in Sweden?!?!

"Sweden" might be very politically incorrect to say, not to mention that it is a racist slur (obviously). Sweden prefers to be called "New-Sweden" these days, if I got them right (can any all-equal-human-being-from-the-territory-that-used-to-be-known-as-Sweden confirm?)

[Rhyfelwyr]

I see your point, but the base of it isn't OK in my view. The problem here is that the Queen, and England, still have an official religion that clearly is allowed to operate within the state, and with the state.

I think religion and politics should be far, FAR, apart.

We don't want to be USA dumb

It's been suggested that the existence of an established church in Britain and the Scandinavian countries might actually help explain why these are the same countries where religion tends not to have much of an influence in political life.

I guess if the major faith in the country has established status, then its followers feel less marginalised and threatened, and as a result religion is never a dividing point or source of protest on political matters.

[Ironside]

"Sweden" might be very politically incorrect to say, not to mention that it is a racist slur (obviously). Sweden prefers to be called "New-Sweden" these days, if I got them right (can any all-equal-human-being-from-the-territory-that-used-to-be-known-as-Sweden confirm?)

I've heard nysvenskar (new swedes) as a term for immigrants yes, not sure how common. Never heard it in any other content.

He (Omar Mustafa) got forced to resign because of his track record of commonly inviting speakers with controversial opinions (read blatant extremists) and not distancing himself enough from their opinions.

[Papewaio]

I guess if the major faith in the country has established status, then its followers feel less marginalised and threatened, and as a result religion is never a dividing point or source of protest on political matters.

Then why are the leadership in the Church of England claiming they feel persecuted?

[Brenus]

"Then why are the leadership in the Church of England claiming they feel persecuted?" The Queen? Well, if topless Duchess of Cambridge's pictures are really Religious Persecutions...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Then why are the leadership in the Church of England claiming they feel persecuted?

I think we are seeing an Americanization of political divides - because of things like the internet, people in the UK are being exposed to the whole religion/abortion/gay marriage issues that go on in the US, and we're starting to divide ourselves along Christian Right/liberal atheist lines.

[gaelic cowboy]

I think we are seeing an Americanization of political divides - because of things like the internet, people in the UK are being exposed to the whole religion/abortion/gay marriage issues that go on in the US, and we're starting to divide ourselves along Christian Right/liberal atheist lines.

I would agree with this to be honest, if i have to listen to another abortion or same sex marraige row I will keel over with frustration and or anger /boredom.

Ireland is down the swaney an there all the time arguing social issues, hey zealots on both sides park your row outside there is actual work to be done

[Brenus]

“we're starting to divide ourselves along Christian Right/liberal atheist lines.”
Err, it is a bit of a simplification. Big debate in the lefties ranks about it, as it can be the open door for renting of the female bodies (surrogate mothers) as marriage means right for adoption and right for assisted fecundity, so open the gates for renting uterus for males couples following principles of equality in front of the law. It exits yet, but some fear it could lead to a legalisation of this. It can lead to human trafficking (young poor girls paid to carry babies for rich westerners, and capitalism being capitalism, more than one if possible).
And usually, marriage is not a lefty value...
On the other side, the right and extreme right is as well divided as some want to have to pre-natal right of adoption (so foetus become person), but more traditionalists prefer the idea of couples as man and woman, model of good parenting, without any consideration of the divorce reality and single mothers phenomenon that disqualifies this idea.

[Kadagar_AV]

How did I miss this post? You just summed up why I love my language so much. Other languages are bland by comparison. Why do you think Americans don't speak other languages? We're still trying to figure out our own.

Hero!

Hjälte!

Held!

THIS is what I love about languages. One simple word, so different connotations.

Translation of words only go so far - I actually have to think in English to be able to communicate properly here.

But with that said, English is a far off echo off of my original thoughts...

Men om jag skriker från hjärtat (likt Ronjas vårskrik) här, kan ni aldrig ana vad jag menar, än mindre följa med i mer teoretiska begrepp.

Translation: Words that honestly can't be translated. You can Google it, but you will not actually understand it without being born and bred.

[Beskar]

In the UK, there is actually ham in the hamburger. It is usually a mixture of beef with pork in the contents. In shops, they are usually called 'Beef Burgers' and chicken ones are called 'Chicken Burgers'.

Men om jag skriker från hjärtat (likt Ronjas vårskrik) här, kan ni aldrig ana vad jag menar, än mindre följa med i mer teoretiska begrepp.

"But if I scream from the heart (like Ronjas vårskrik) here, you can never guess what I mean, let alone follow more theoretical concepts."

But there are many such examples in many different languages, it isn't language specific.
It is like citing Blood Brothers, An Inspector Calls, or even Shakespeare and say they could not be understood if translated into a different language.

[Kadagar_AV]

In the UK, there is actually ham in the hamburger. It is usually a mixture of beef with pork in the contents. In shops, they are usually called 'Beef Burgers' and chicken ones are called 'Chicken Burgers'.



"But if I scream from the heart (like Ronjas vårskrik) here, you can never guess what I mean, let alone follow more theoretical concepts."

But there are many such examples in many different languages, it isn't language specific.
It is like citing Blood Brothers, An Inspector Calls, or even Shakespeare and say they could not be understood if translated into a different language.

Of course there are many such examples from any nations culture. Maybe less so in English because of its mongrel status (or more so, because of its mongrel status?).

Ronja is a character from an Astrid Lindgren book. In the movie / TV series, there is this scene where she does a "spring cry". Every Swede can relate to it, but it really is an untranslatable feeling that is hard to put in words.

For a Swede, language and ethnicity and culture goes hand in hand. Is it the same in English? American English, Jamaican English, Australian English and so on... As English doesnt have a shared ethnicity, I guess it's more the culture that creates this bond, rather than the language?

Shakespeare is about as close a common factor you have as anything, or?

To be, or not to be...

I guess Hollywood can also be seen as a big influencer there.... "Luke, I am your father"

[Conradus]

I guess Hollywood can also be seen as a big influencer there.... "Luke, I am your father"

And that line's never been said :D

[Papewaio]

I say it all the time.

Of course it helps that it is my son's name...

[Beskar]

I say it all the time.

Of course it helps that it is my son's name...

Does your son have a reason to question his parentage often?

[Papewaio]

How often do seven year olds get upset with parental rules...

[Kadagar_AV]

How often do seven year olds get upset with parental rules...

Depends on how often you sit down and explain the reason for the rules :)

[Papewaio]

A lot. Kids tend to need to be told multiple times for some rules. Leading by example helps.

He likes to do the dishes with me because he sees that as a grown up priviledge. He doesn't like to go to bed early because staying up late is also a grown up priviledge... conversely he doesn't like being women up at 6:00am even if that is a grown up action.

[Kadagar_AV]

A lot. Kids tend to need to be told multiple times for some rules. Leading by example helps.

He likes to do the dishes with me because he sees that as a grown up priviledge. He doesn't like to go to bed early because staying up late is also a grown up priviledge... conversely he doesn't like being women up at 6:00am even if that is a grown up action.

I know it was a spelling error... Gave me quite a laugh though, but then I love inappropriate humour...

[Slyspy]

In the UK, there is actually ham in the hamburger.

Do what?

[The Lurker Below]

Do what?

That is pretty awful, eh? It sounds almost as bad as a chicken omelette.

[LittleGrizzly]

That is pretty awful, eh? It sounds almost as bad as a chicken omelette.

If I have eaten a hamburger rather than just a beef burger (living in the UK I guess I would have) then it is such a small amount you don't even notice the taste...

I can imagine chicken going quite nicely in an omelette...

[Kadagar_AV]

I did a Hamburger some weeks ago...

As a sidenote: we SO need flags with the roman alphabet on them.

[Slyspy]

That is pretty awful, eh? It sounds almost as bad as a chicken omelette.

No, it isn't that. I just think it is a bizarre misconception.

[Hax]

For a Swede, language and ethnicity and culture goes hand in hand. Is it the same in English? American English, Jamaican English, Australian English and so on... As English doesnt have a shared ethnicity, I guess it's more the culture that creates this bond, rather than the language?

How deep is the connection between the Swedish-speaking minority in western Finland and "Sweden proper"?

[Fragony]

Not sure don't hurt me but isn't Ronja a girl in that book

Ecit, yes she is Ronja de Roverdochter (dutch tanslation)

[Sigurd]

I have been busy building...

TR... I will not be able to provide you with links to sources on the internet for my claims. Most of it comes from literature way before the internet. Mostly are books written by scholars from different denominations. People that devoted a life time to the study of these things. I just think it too sad that they are no longer with us to withstand the flow of this age's Arianism, Adoptionism, Docetism, Monarchiansim, Monothelitism or Gnosticism. Which I believe is the result of an unchecked evolution of the protestant movement. There are no body of Protestantism that can dictate or claim divine ruling on dogma or doctrine. With no such authoritative clergy - anyone can go in any direction or interpretation of the canon, establish a church and lay down dogma to be followed and claim that all other denominations are an abomination to God.

I have spent 2 decades in the middle of this and have discussed (debated) with many followers of such. What I found was that the evangelists (I need to put some sort of umbrella on them) lack a common doctrinal foundation. The diversity of opinions on basic doctrine like salvation is astonishing. Rhyfelwyr, our resident ultra protestant, understood immediately the nuance of the different salvations. And I believe it is because he actually has talked to people with different opinions on this specific topic. I have met people from the same church or denomination which had 3 different views on a simple single doctrine. Where is a Paul when needed? Someone who can say: you are wrong - this is what God's opinion on this matter is.

To spout Dan Brown on me is just sad and desperate bad form. I am disappointed.

well their are many places, but one is matt 23 were it says jesus will be last prophet. Look especially to v 37. last of all i will send my son.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...21&version=NIV

the bible in many places is clear jesus is last and no more added to bible

Definition of a prophet: A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.

You claim Jesus was the last one? I guess we can just throw out the NT then, since it was written without divine inspiration by men, not having prophetic gifts.
Peter, James, John, Luke, Matthew, Mark and Paul were just making stuff up if they were not directly quoting Jesus. This is the consequence of what you are claiming...

Besides, whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not has nothing to do with the claim of being Christians or not (Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus).