Socialism: the problem and prescription's of Marx

[gaelic cowboy]

...:sigh: can we just skip the long spiral of self delusion and constant rage inducing obliviousness and go straight to the part where you either: stop being stupid, or lose interest in this forum and go bother someone else.

I just ignore it to be honest

[Husar]

...:sigh: can we just skip the long spiral of self delusion and constant rage inducing obliviousness and go straight to the part where you either: stop being stupid, or lose interest in this forum and go bother someone else.

So much about showing how social cooperation works and demonstrating why our rich only care about their own concerns.
You don't even have the patience to discuss with someone you perceive to be below your level, mark him as not worthy, insult him as stupid and then tell him to leave. And then you expect me to believe anything you say about the selfish evils of capitalism and the benefits of socialism?

I just ignore it to be honest

Another way to improve the world, just fantasize with your elitist friends about what works best and ignore the 95% of the population who have no idea what you're talking about. That's surely going to work.

[Greyblades]

So much about showing how social cooperation works and demonstrating why our rich only care about their own concerns.

I'm upset that you think I still think that way. I went pro-moderation afew days ago, if you remember, socialism is needed to keep the capitalists from running roughshod over the little man, and capitalism is needed to get things done, niether is superior as one cant/shouldnt work without the other. I find socialism better intentioned but that doesnt blind me to its flaws (anymore at any rate).

You don't even have the patience to discuss with someone you perceive to be below your level, mark him as not worthy, insult him as stupid and then tell him to leave

If I didnt have the patience to discuss with him I'd put him on ignore.
I find him obnoxious, his english is confusing, simply; I dont know what he's saying half the time and the other half seems to be either self satisfied reaffirmations of his political agenda or non sequiturs. Frankly I dont know if he's a troll in the vein of total relism or simply churlish in the vein of avg. If the former: he most certainly is "not worthy" and should leave.

If the latter he should try to improve his english and lighten up on the attitude.(didnt work with avg but I'm an optimist) I'm hoping for the latter, I'm willing to put up with a lot if the end result is another decent poster, but I have no patience or sympathy should he prove to be another Troll.

Could I have said it better? Alot better? Yup. Half the story of my life is cringing at the other half.

. And then you expect me to believe anything you say about the selfish evils of capitalism and the benefits of socialism?

You're German arent you? Why do you need me to explain the benefits of socialism? Your NHS is older than mine by half a century!

Another way to improve the world, just fantasize with your elitist friends about what works best and ignore the 95% of the population who have no idea what you're talking about. That's surely going to work.

...You mean... that's not what we all came here for?

[Husar]

I'm upset that you think I still think that way. I went pro-moderation afew days ago, if you remember, socialism is needed to keep the capitalists from running roughshod over the little man, and capitalism is needed to get things done, niether is superior as one cant/shouldnt work without the other. I find socialism better intentioned but that doesnt blind me to its flaws (anymore at any rate).

If I didnt have the patience to discuss with him I'd put him on ignore.
I find him obnoxious, his english is confusing, simply; I dont know what he's saying half the time and the other half seems to be either self satisfied reaffirmations of his political agenda or non sequiturs. Frankly I dont know if he's a troll in the vein of total relism or simply churlish in the vein of avg. If the former: he most certainly is "not worthy" and should leave.

If the latter he should try to improve his english and lighten up on the attitude.(didnt work with avg but I'm an optimist) I'm hoping for the latter, I'm willing to put up with a lot if the end result is another decent poster, but I have no patience or sympathy should he prove to be another Troll.

Could I have said it better? Alot better? Yup. Half the story of my life is cringing at the other half.

You should have said it better! In fact I thought about reporting you for a personal attack but I preferred to discuss the matter openly.
My point is not about what you believe and what not, that's irrelevant.
My point is that you and I and others say socialism is needed because otherwise we end up with an underclass etc.
Then a guy from a poor, oppressed country comes along and discusses with us and the "compassionate" people tell him to bugger off because he does not suite their sensibilities in terms of language. So much about showing that compassion...
You made it even worse by insulting him, the whole suspicion of being a troll is rubbish, I've trolled numerous times here and people responded seriously to it, most people couldn't smell a troll when he's breathing down their neck. And then label some poor guy a troll because his english isn't up to their standard. Yeah well, if education were as good everywhere as it is in the west, then a lot of problems wouldn't exist in the first place.
And instead of offering help your solution is to tell him to bugger off. I find that lazy and selfish because you expect someone from a less developed part of the world to fit western standards or go away. It's not helping anyone. Also for a society that claims to be oh so open it's an incredibly closed attitude.

It's also sad that every second thing on the internet is considered a fraud or a troll or not honest in some way, says something about how fake people really are...
I know, I just said I trolled sometimes.... Maybe I played devil's advocate sometimes would be more appropriate.

You're German arent you? Why do you need me to explain the benefits of socialism? Your NHS is older than mine by half a century!
...You mean... that's not what we all came here for?

I know that my country is superior, don't worry, I was just saying your argument is not working well if your behaviour contradicts your words.

[rvg]

Western socialism is basically a pay-more-to-get-more kind of system. I just came back from a quick foray into Canada (literally, walked into my house an hour ago after spending a night in Niagara Falls). Anyway, first thing that struck me in Canada: roads. They're quite awesome, excellent condition, high quality paving, you can tell that roads are well maintained. For the record, roads in Michigan are utter shit.
Anyway, my awe at the Canadian roads was dispelled by two things:
1. Low speed limits coupled with cops mercilessly enforcing those speed limits. I of course stayed out of trouble and moved with packs of Canadian cars, but still, roadsides were littered with flashing sirens and stopped drivers with long faces (most of them Americans). Oh, and every 10 miles or so there as a threatening sign: "50 km over the speed limit is a $10000 fine." Didn't like that, not one bit.
2. On my trip back I stopped to fill up my gas tank, pulled up to the gas station and looked at the price $2.12! Wow GREAT! I thought until it hit me a second later....that's $2.12 per LITER, not Gallon. 2 bucks for a frikken liter? That's crazy, man, just totally insane.

About 5 miles into Michigan the road got so bumpy that my daughter who was sleeping in the back seat woke up: "Daddy, this is Michigan, right?" Yeah, it's Michigan alright.

/rant off

[The Stranger]

Western socialism is basically a pay-more-to-get-more kind of system. I just came back from a quick foray into Canada (literally, walked into my house an hour ago after spending a night in Niagara Falls). Anyway, first thing that struck me in Canada: roads. They're quite awesome, excellent condition, high quality paving, you can tell that roads are well maintained. For the record, roads in Michigan are utter shit.
Anyway, my awe at the Canadian roads was dispelled by two things:
1. Low speed limits coupled with cops mercilessly enforcing those speed limits. I of course stayed out of trouble and moved with packs of Canadian cars, but still, roadsides were littered with flashing sirens and stopped drivers with long faces (most of them Americans). Oh, and every 10 miles or so there as a threatening sign: "50 km over the speed limit is a $10000 fine." Didn't like that, not one bit.
2. On my trip back I stopped to fill up my gas tank, pulled up to the gas station and looked at the price $2.12! Wow GREAT! I thought until it hit me a second later....that's $2.12 per LITER, not Gallon. 2 bucks for a frikken liter? That's crazy, man, just totally insane.

About 5 miles into Michigan the road got so bumpy that my daughter who was sleeping in the back seat woke up: "Daddy, this is Michigan, right?" Yeah, it's Michigan alright.

/rant off

sounds like belgian roads to me.

[Greyblades]

You should have said it better! In fact I thought about reporting you for a personal attack but I preferred to discuss the matter openly.
My point is not about what you believe and what not, that's irrelevant.
My point is that you and I and others say socialism is needed because otherwise we end up with an underclass etc.
Then a guy from a poor, oppressed country comes along and discusses with us and the "compassionate" people tell him to bugger off because he does not suite their sensibilities in terms of language. So much about showing that compassion...You made it even worse by insulting him, the whole suspicion of being a troll is rubbish, I've trolled numerous times here and people responded seriously to it, most people couldn't smell a troll when he's breathing down their neck. And then label some poor guy a troll because his english isn't up to their standard. Yeah well, if education were as good everywhere as it is in the west, then a lot of problems wouldn't exist in the first place.

...my sensibilities in terms of language amplify my feeling of disdane against him, they are in no way the lynchpin. What I can't read I can only judge on presentation, multiple exclamation points and an over use of the caps lock does not leave a good impression. From the parts I can read of his posts, I find him supremely ignorant and occasionally offensive, the combination of this and his presentation I assume poe's law.

Make no mistake this is not a spontanious thing, I am reacting to about a month of his posting, not just that one post.

I prefer socialistic government, that does not require me to suffer fools gladly. Our knowledge of his circumstances are reliant on his word, for all we know he's a 12 yr old american looking for laughs or he might be actually be a kurdish man under the foot of tyrrany, or anything between, either way he's acting like a jackass here and I've noticed a trend on this forum that after a long period of obtusiveness most who act as he does either end up improving or they leave, I wish he would make that decision quickly and save us some grief.

And instead of offering help your solution is to tell him to bugger off. I find that lazy and selfish because you expect someone from a less developed part of the world to fit western standards or go away. It's not helping anyone. Also for a society that claims to be oh so open it's an incredibly closed attitude.

I know that my country is superior, don't worry, I was just saying your argument is not working well if your behaviour contradicts your words.

Why? I was unaware that my posts on socialism contained a tangent on forum etiquette, that to talk about socialism I was supposed to extend compassion at all times to some random man on the internet who says he's kurdish, even when he is being a fool. His nationality does not influence my opinion of the quality of a person and right now he's making a mockery out of himself, I'd advise he do something about it.

[Husar]

Basically why do i have to react to anything anyone says I thought I was giving good advice to Greyblades.

You don't and I read that differently, my apologies if I misunderstood.

...my sensibilities in terms of language amplify my feeling of disdane against him, they are in no way the lynchpin. What I can't read I can only judge on presentation, multiple exclamation points and an over use of the caps lock does not leave a good impression. From the parts I can read of his posts, I find him supremely ignorant and occasionally offensive, the combination of this and his presentation I assume poe's law.

I don't know poe's law but your own impatience with others and their faults is no reason to insult them.

Make no mistake this is not a spontanious thing, I am reacting to about a month of his posting, not just that one post.

In that case you should have seen that he tried to improve his style already after we made him aware of how bad it looks. It was a small step but you don't conquer Russia in a day or how they say.

I prefer socialistic government, that does not require me to suffer fools gladly. Our knowledge of his circumstances are reliant on his word, for all we know he's a 12 yr old american looking for laughs or he might be actually be a kurdish man under the foot of tyrrany, or anything between, either way he's acting like a jackass here and I've noticed a trend on this forum that after a long period of obtusiveness most who act as he does either end up improving or they leave, I wish he would make that decision quickly and save us some grief.

Again, you're just impatient, make assumptions and you insulted him, that's what jackasses do. If you have such a problem with his posts you can put him on ignore and if they're actually offensive you can report them. You explain this as though he forced you to insult him.

Why? I was unaware that my posts on socialism contained a tangent on forum etiquette, that to talk about socialism I was supposed to extend compassion at all times to some random man on the internet who says he's kurdish, even when he is being a fool. His nationality does not influence my opinion of the quality of a person and[...]

Well, now you're aware that I judge your words by your personal attitude. So if you talk about fairness and equality and then jump on someone who may not have had the fortunate upbringing we had, your points about fairness and equality are harder to take as sincere.
How can you judge whether he is a fool or not when you say you can hardly understand what he is trying to say? Maybe it's just a language problem. I only brought up nationality because I would think English and how not to believe propaganda are probably not the prime educational goals in Iran and I would never deny that my education and my surroundings had a strong influence on my world view, do you? His education and surroundings are very different from ours so it doesn't surprise me that he has very different views. I'm more surprised that you find it so shocking...

[...]right now he's making a mockery out of himself, I'd advise he do something about it.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this part but you still can't expect someone to change completely within a day or a month.

[Greyblades]

I don't know poe's law but your own impatience with others and their faults is no reason to insult them.

Poe's law: without clear indication of parody the most extreme of parody can be nigh indistinguishable from reality. Basically, I was inclined to think he's a troll, as I assume that someone cant be as ignorant or offensive without being intentionally so.

In that case you should have seen that he tried to improve his style already after we made him aware of how bad it looks. It was a small step but you don't conquer Russia in a day or how they say.

Actually, I saw no attempts to improve his style until after the offending post. You dont conquer russia at all if you dont take the first step.

Again, you're just impatient, make assumptions and you insulted him, that's what jackasses do. If you have such a problem with his posts you can put him on ignore and if they're actually offensive you can report them. You explain this as though he forced you to insult him.

A jackass would not even entertain the idea that he was a sincere, and a jackass would have continued the insults after being chastised for it.

I generally dont ignore anyone as a rule, if they are truely worth ignoring they will be banned in time, if they arent that generally means they are here to discuss things and while the majority of thier posts may be inane or pointless there is the chance that they will say something worthy of note (still waiting on AVG, but ICSD and Fragony have born some fruit) and it is to my detriment alone if I do not see it due to an ignore.
Emperor appeared to be on the way to a ban and I had spent about a month avoiding dealing with him until he directly addressed me, and I said what I did: Shape up or leave and spare us the drama of making the choice all the others make. Time will tell if he takes it to heart but it needed to be said, I only apologise for my lack of tact in saying it.

Well, now you're aware that I judge your words by your personal attitude. So if you talk about fairness and equality and then jump on someone who may not have had the fortunate upbringing we had, your points about fairness and equality are harder to take as sincere.

If I was unfair I would have jumped on him for his upbringing, his heritage or some other factor outside of his control. But instead I attacked his behaviour on the forum which has been disgraceful. Equality? I gave him the same consideration I give everone else when he first appeared, he acted a fool, so I treated him like everyone else who acts a fool out of the gate.

How can you judge whether he is a fool or not when you say you can hardly understand what he is trying to say? Maybe it's just a language problem.

If it is, it's a pretty bad language problem, he was going on about the freemason conspiracies two week ago.
I'm starting to think most of the stuff I thought I couldnt understand was more due to not believeing what I was reading was real than a language barrier.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this part but you still can't expect someone to change completely within a day or a month.

Again, I didnt expect much but I got nothing. Still waiting to see if his recent efforts stick.

[HopAlongBunny]

...You mean... that's not what we all came here for?

I'm with LittleGrizzly on this. Much of the reason I like this place is that it provides a place to discuss, and be educated about stuff, most people could either careless about or cannot approach w/o completely going off the rails.
Here, you can be completely wrong and still get a coherent and often helpful reply.

[gaelic cowboy]

Another way to improve the world, just fantasize with your elitist friends about what works best and ignore the 95% of the population who have no idea what you're talking about. That's surely going to work.

Look the fella talks about zionist plots an the New World Order etc on another thread.

Basically I aint gonna be the one to feed the proverbial.

[rvg]

Look the fella talks about zionist plots an the New World Order etc on another thread.

Basically I aint gonna be the one to feed the feeding the proverbial.

You're right, the level of nonsense is off the charts.

[gaelic cowboy]

the biochip NWO smartcard plot is my fav on page 5 of the Syria thread

[LittleGrizzly]

In fairness one of my friends got a little bit into his conspiracies and mocking combined with serious talking seemed to mostly snap him out of it...

[Husar]

Look the fella talks about zionist plots an the New World Order etc on another thread.

Basically I aint gonna be the one to feed the proverbial.

That's another thread as you say yourself. I said in other threads that the zionist thing is pretty crazy and that people ignore him because of it.
What I don't like to see is people insulting him and then everybody piles up to make him leave. If you think his point is crazy, just say it.
Labelling people as outcasts doesn't help a lot. We've had others who posted pretty crazy ideas for most of the other posters but fit in relatively well now.

LittleGrizzly has a relatively healthy attitude to the topic IMO. Don't hesitate to call an idea crazy but just the mocking part doesn't do it.
You can't just turn someone into a mocking pinata because you think his ideas are crazy and he hasn't been taught oxford english.

[LittleGrizzly]

What I don't like to see is people insulting him and then everybody piles up to make him leave. If you think his point is crazy, just say it.
Labelling people as outcasts doesn't help a lot. We've had others who posted pretty crazy ideas for most of the other posters but fit in relatively well now.
........................................................................

Exactly!

Engage and debate, his ideas are out there but I think some of the interesting characters on here can be people with pretty far out ideas. If someone proves themselves to be a zealot on every topic who will not listen to reason then by all means ignore them but as an example on the Scottish independance topic he wrote a post that was pretty out there and Rhyfelwyr corrected him on some mistakes he has made an in adult manner and if required will provide supporting evidence...

Empire has not come back and called him a liar, he has not ignored him and just rewrote what he previously wrote, maybe he has learned some new information and advanced his knowledge and understanding...

I came to the .org backroom as a stupid angry teenager with terrible English who to an extent thought he had the answers to everything. That may be overstating it (back me up here ) but it is certainly true to an extent. Were it not for people showing me the error of my ways and leading by their own example I probably would not have changed much as it is I think I have changed a lot for the better...

If nothing else interacting on these boards will help him develop his English.

Right now sorry for talking about you as if you are not here Empire, I enjoy having a variety of different viewpoints and I hope you stick around to give us yours I have no problem with you struggling with English as your probably speak and write your native language better than the majority of us (a fair few of us don't even speak a second language myself included) just try to keep an open mind and remember no matter how much you now about a variety of subjects there is always someone out there who knows more than you (or me) and these are people we should listen to (even if the conclusion they take from these facts are the wrong ones)

One little piece of advice though don't play around with the font sizes and colours on your writing too much as it is almost the equivalent of writing in all caps it looks more noticeable but the content of your post is taken less seriously, use it very sparingly for full effect.

[gaelic cowboy]

That's another thread as you say yourself. I said in other threads that the zionist thing is pretty crazy and that people ignore him because of it.
What I don't like to see is people insulting him and then everybody piles up to make him leave. If you think his point is crazy, just say it.
Labelling people as outcasts doesn't help a lot. We've had others who posted pretty crazy ideas for most of the other posters but fit in relatively well now.

LittleGrizzly has a relatively healthy attitude to the topic IMO. Don't hesitate to call an idea crazy but just the mocking part doesn't do it.
You can't just turn someone into a mocking pinata because you think his ideas are crazy and he hasn't been taught oxford english.

I already said i just ignore him am I not allowed to ignore a comment

Basically why do i have to react to anything anyone says I thought I was giving good advice to Greyblades.