Turkish Spring ?

[HoreTore]

I hear Erdogan has started restricting the sale of alcohol during the day - here's hoping that doesn't sit well with the majority brand of Turkish Islam.

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

[Pannonian]

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

You're only saying that because you're a religious fundie.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can't really compare the two. The position of the clergy in Iran was (and is) completely​ different.

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

Idk why, but this made me rethink some things.

[Hax]

Fifty shades of Islamism. AKP =/= Khomeini =/= Muslim Brotherhood

But wait, there's more: the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten, the former mostly by representatives of the current regime, the second mostly by people everywhere from about 1982 onwards.

The way you constructed your post is also rather misleading, as it gives the idea that the transition from the Osman state to the Turkish republic was a sudden shift from a so-called "Islamic" state to a secular republic, while in fact, the Caliphate had been experimenting with secularist concepts from the early 19th century onwards (cf. Tanzimat, Young Ottomans, etc.).

Additionally, strong economic growth in Turkey didn't really kick off until well after the 1980's.

I'm very much opposed to the AKP and Erdogan and his lackeys for many different reasons, but in you post there are a lot of things that are either wilfully ignored or just overlooked, which leads to a very flawed analysis of the recent history of Turkey, and as such to something of a misleading argument.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fifty shades of Islamism. AKP =/= Khomeini =/= Muslim Brotherhood

But wait, there's more: the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten, the former mostly by representatives of the current regime, the second mostly by people everywhere from about 1982 onwards.

The way you constructed your post is also rather misleading, as it gives the idea that the transition from the Osman state to the Turkish republic was a sudden shift from a so-called "Islamic" state to a secular republic, while in fact, the Caliphate had been experimenting with secularist concepts from the early 19th century onwards (cf. Tanzimat, Young Ottomans, etc.).

Additionally, strong economic growth in Turkey didn't really kick off until well after the 1980's.

I'm very much opposed to the AKP and Erdogan and his lackeys for many different reasons, but in you post there are a lot of things that are either wilfully ignored or just overlooked, which leads to a very flawed analysis of the recent history of Turkey, and as such to something of a misleading argument.

I'm deliberately simplifying, Hax, because I'm a student of religious oppression and I'm looking at the opposing forces at play rather than the specific players.

Until recently headscarves were banned in public buildings in Turkey - a Kamalist statement that Turkey is not as Islamic (read: Arab) country. Given that most Western men find Islamic headcovering at best mildly offensive this was applauded and the reversal of the ban was met with some disquiet.

Here's the point: When wearing a headscarf becomes a political statement against the authoritarians you are failing to secularise the country.

This is what the AKP capitalised on - the same as the Mullahs in Iran.

[Hax]

I believe I can largely follow what you're getting at.

However, I still find the comparison between the AKP and the Iranian Shi'ite clergy rather troublesome: apart from the points mentioned above, it portrays the Shi'ite clergy as a more-or-less homogeneous group of conservatives, which isn't really true (compare Ahmadinejad from 8 years ago with someone as Ali Shariati or (more recently) Mehdi Karroubi). There is an interesting letter that I will try to localise (there is an English translation) between two Iranian clerics talking about the social contract.

[Strike For The South]

I believe I can largely follow what you're getting at.

However, I still find the comparison between the AKP and the Iranian Shi'ite clergy rather troublesome: apart from the points mentioned above, it portrays the Shi'ite clergy as a more-or-less homogeneous group of conservatives, which isn't really true (compare Ahmadinejad from 8 years ago with someone as Ali Shariati or (more recently) Mehdi Karroubi). There is an interesting letter that I will try to localise (there is an English translation) between two Iranian clerics talking about the social contract.

Damn your nuance.

[Sir Moody]

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

that depends very much on how it is enforced and how far you take the definition of secularism - there are 3 "models" which have been used at one point or another - the US model which was unenforced and has ended up in name only, the French model which is enforced by law to a point and the model Turkey used which was uncompromising and enforced by the Military - I think we can all agree the happy medium is somewhere between the US and French

It also depends on what the "religious fundamentalists" are asking for - to be heard and have their opinions considered, then yes, to have only their opinions considered, then no.

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

yes that is a blatant pro Islamist move...

[HoreTore]

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

[Fisherking]

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

So, you have no problem dictating how others should live their lives?

Thanks for sharing that.

[HoreTore]

So, you have no problem dictating how others should live their lives?

Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, exactly.

:rollseyes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

Ah, so you hate Jews.

Wait - that statement is as silly as yours.

[HoreTore]

Ah, so you hate Jews.

Wait - that statement is as silly as yours.

I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm not sure I care.

Why are Alcohol restrictions good in your book? It seems like prohibition of all kinds is doomed to failure, and has side-effects ranging from an increase in organized crime to a total subversion of large parts of your government in the name of continuing prohibition. I'd like to know why you think the opposite could be true.

I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm not sure I care.

It's a pro-Islamic measure, playing to the sensitivities of Muslims against those of Christians and Jews.

Keep up.

I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

Ahem - Norwegian Sailors.

[HoreTore]

It's a pro-Islamic measure, playing to the sensitivities of Muslims against those of Christians and Jews.

Keep up.

Do I care?

A good idea is a good idea.

If an anti-religious(make it a muslim one if you want) wanted to piss off the religious people in the country by proposing gay marriage, I would still support the measure whole-heartily even if the aim of the proposal is to raise a certain finger to a certain group in a divide and conquer-scheme.

Because it's still a damned good idea.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do I care?

A good idea is a good idea.

If an anti-religious(make it a muslim one if you want) wanted to piss off the religious people in the country by proposing gay marriage, I would still support the measure whole-heartily even if the aim of the proposal is to raise a certain finger to a certain group in a divide and conquer-scheme.

Because it's still a damned good idea.

The Autobarns were a good idea too - as were Hitler's other industrial projects - but it was still stupid of Western Europe to support him, wasn't it.

Down with Islamists and all their Ilk, says I.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Erdogan is not that True Islamic that you think !!

so by all these things against your Anti ISLAMIC government, you want another Ultra-Racist criminals Kamalists be in the full of Government ?!

[HoreTore]

I guess I can get behind taxing alcohol more. Quite frankly, it needs to be treated exactly like a recreational drug and not a slightly more interesting soda pop. That would at least put people in the right frame of mind when considering what other drugs should be allowed for recreation, and also goes to show what the government can get out of a heavily taxed recreational drug (alcohol profits and the taxes from those profits are astronomical in America).

Completely outlawing something to get rid of its negative effects - prohibition - never works. Regulating it with a carrot-and-whip-scheme, on the other hand....

I don't like the idea of it being used as a means of getting tax money, however.

Erdogan is not that True Islamic that you think !!

so by all these things against your Anti ISLAMIC government, you want another Ultra-Racist criminals Kamalists be in the full of Government ?!

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

[Ironside]

I
I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

With those times, it's a de facto prohibition for the population outside students. It's really a law made to create illegal bypassing.

[Fisherking]

I back LEN’s view on this. I hope he pipes in soon again on it.

If LEN thinks the Prime Minister is a Truly UnRepentitive Dictator, I will take him at his word.

He dose seem to still have a support base among the more staunchly religious of Islam, who say they agree with the protesters over some of the issues, but oppose them because of the looting, vandalism, and calling the PM names.

Earlier, LEN said that he worried that was being done by undercover police. Which could be the case.

Local reporting is restricted because journalists get locked up for statements not friendly to the government. So there you have it.

[Montmorency]

I'm not impressed with these protests. A few tens of thousands of young people, secularists and environmentalists.

Erdogan still has the support of the majority of the country. His little quip could perhaps be seen as a test of the waters. That hundreds of thousands did not mobilize in response to the provocation is telling.

The upcoming local elections will show what's what.