Crusader Kings II

[komnenos]

OK but I really enjoyed playing as Genoa. As I read the history of fourth crusade I extremely hated Venice and I don't like Venice to play at all, but if you don't care try playing Venice.

[Hooahguy]

Attila "the Cube"? How does one get that title?

[Hooahguy]

Oh yeah, I got that part, but Im just trying to figure out where "cube" came from. Were they geometrically inclined or something?

[Hooahguy]

How can I fabricate a claim on an entire country? I know you can fabricate a claim on single provinces, but Im trying to take Brittany but I have to take it province by province which takes ages and Ive lost a number of good chancellors as they were fabricating claims.

Before I thought I could press the claim of someone in my court, which I did before, but that didnt seem to work as when I won, the claimant took the throne of Brittany, but wasnt my vassal.

On a similar note, whats a good way to force someone to be my vassal. Id rather just coerce the current king of Brittany to be my vassal than fight a war.

[Hooahguy]

If claim fabrication is how you intend to expand, the most you can get at a time is a Duchy, and only then with a good Chancellor. The most expedient way to go about claim warfare like that is to fabricate multiple claims before going to war, as there should be a "Press all claims" cassus belli.

As for getting vassals without conquering, I've only seen it work when you're an Empire and you're asking Duchies and Counties to join you. They have to be independent and at peace for you to have the option. You can ask Kings, but they always say no it seems.

So I just checked, the ruler was a petty king, Ill try again when hes dead.

[Chaotix]

So I just checked, the ruler was a petty king, Ill try again when hes dead.

Petty kings are considered Dukes for the purposes of the game.

Usually, to vassalize someone, you have to be at least two ranks higher than them (so King for a Count, Emperor for a Duke), share their religion, and additionally either share their culture or be their de jure liege. Sometimes if you are very powerful you can vassalize someone without being the de jure liege or same culture, if you directly border them.

If you don't border them, you'll get the "distant land" penalty, and if you are not 2 ranks above you'll get the "small difference in rank" penalty - and either of these will usually prevent you from being able to vassalize.

If you're having trouble trying to vassalize a Duke or a King, you can try claiming enough of his land to usurp his primary titles. Then when his realm fractures his former vassals will usually fold to you, and it's just a matter of doing a de jure war for the one or two counties left.

[Hooahguy]

Holy hell, my wife is now the empress of the HRE. Not sure how that happened, I wasnt following HRE politics, but now I am absolutely astounded how that happened. Now my heir will be unifying the HRE and Britannia, I cannot believe this. So what would be the title of this massive empire? Can I name it, Id love to have the Holy European Empire, maybe eventually I can take over all of Europe!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also that petty king of Brittany died and his heir accepted my offer of vassalization so that was easy.

EDIT: there was a massive civil war in the HRE trying to oust my wife from the throne. For the good of the family I couldnt say no to helping defend her throne, so 45,000 English troops landed on the shores of Normandy, marched across France, and slowly beat back rebel forces. Initially the warscore was -65, and I was worried that my wife would surrender, but over the next few years we got it up to -20. Finally the rebels settled on a white peace, which I guess is better than a defeat, so thats good I think. I guess when I become HRE emperor I have this to look forward to.

[Hooahguy]

Yeah, its going to be quite the experience managing an empire that large. Thinking about just handing off England and Scotland to my favorite vassals because managing the HRE and Britannia is going to be really tough.

But yeah. I started as an Irish duke, then became king of Ireland , then to King of Scotland, then back to a small duke, then back to a king, then an emperor, its been quite the ride. The Dunkeld family began as Irish, became Scottish, then somehow was Welsh for a bit, and now its English. And I think that it will soon have some German in the mix soon.

My suggestion is to work small. When the game started I concentrated everything on getting that one neighbor's province. Then the next, until I got Ireland under my contorl. Then I did the same for Scotland. Concentrated on getting the Isle of Man, then Argyll, and so forth. Keep working like that. Even if it takes a while to fabricate the claim, take it because its just the first stepping stone. Later on the big changes like from king to emperor will happen but its small steps before that.

Also isnt there an ending date or something?

[Monk]

Also isnt there an ending date or something?

The game ends in 1453.

[Hooahguy]

Wow, so I only have like 90 years left before the game ends.

[Hooahguy]

Though aren't the non-pagans at a disadvantage at that early start date? That's what I heard.

Also since I don't want to get the Old Gods until it goes on sale, what's a good nation to play as next? I'm thinking maybe a small Italian state.

[Hooahguy]

Well My current game is an Irish one, so I'm thinking something a tad different.

[komnenos]

If you want to get another chance like that, you can focus on an emperor or a king and kill all of his sons and if he has daughter , marry her and get that title for the future. Therefore continue this strategy and expand your empire as you can. I always use this strategy in my game. One time I get HRE then kingdom of Castile and Russia! But you should have great spymaster to do it in the best way.

[B-Wing]

Also since I don't want to get the Old Gods until it goes on sale, what's a good nation to play as next?

One nation I intend to give a shot is Armenia Minor. They don't become independent until around 1100 or so, but they're in a very interesting position as a Miaphysite duchy nestled between the crusader states, Byzantines, and Rum.

I also had a very fun campaign as Georgia, who is probably in an easier position than Armenia Minor.

[Beskar]

Wow, so I only have like 90 years left before the game ends.

You can modify the defines so you can go past that date, but there are no special scripts or the like.

[Monk]

I passed over 400 hours played in CK2 during my last session over the weekend. That makes CK2 easily my most played Steam game and in the running for the most time i've wasted with a single game since I was little. It's hard to imagine another single player game that has kept me engaged this long. Not even EUIII did, as I maxed out there with about 200 hours. God this is a time consuming hobby. If not for a new job and a ton of new responsibilities my played time would probably be even higher than that.

I had some time today and I was thinking about the various gameplay experiences i've had with this game. Just thought i'd list them off for some fun.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fought a desperate defense as the Excommunicated King of Ireland against the much more powerful Scottish King, only to lose and see my army destroyed on the field of battle. To add insult to injury, my brothers rebelled the following seasons igniting a civil war in the islands that ripped the Kingdom asunder. My King died an "exile" ruling only two counties which could laughably called the Kingdom of Wales.

Through dynastic power plays united all of Northern Spain and completed the Reconquista by 1300. Ensured the only powerful enemy I had was constantly suffering internal strife by repeatedly killing members of their ruling dynasty or otherwise weakening their nation with constant holy wars.

From pauper, to prince, to pauper again starting as a count in England. Secured a claim to the Throne and led a faction to install my dynasty to power. Succeeded only to see it fall apart a generation later when my idiot son couldn't hold things together.

Led over 400 years of rule in Italy as the decendants of Matilda of Tuscany. United the entirety of the Boot and even claimed the holy city of Jerusalem in a crusade. By 1250 AD Italy was the greatest power in the Catholic world, but two hundred years later a centuries old decline saw the last great king slain by rebels on the field of battle, fracturing the kingdom once and for all.

United all of Russia beneath a custom dynasty, destroying the legacy of Rurik by scouring his descendants to the wind and instituting my own rule. Faced down the Mongol invasion and turned them back time and again only to be defeated by my own lust for power. In an attempt to put down a revolt in Hungary after siezing the throne, the Mongols returned and destroyed the great Russian state, casting out my dynasty from power. 300 years of rule ended.

Pushed the last descendant of Charlemagne back to power by seizing control, through bribery and marriage, of the two most powerful duchies in Northern France. When the Capets fell upon hard times we declared independence.. and joined the Holy Roman Empire. Now a member of the Empire, many called for the last Karling to take the throne.. and it was done. The power was fleeting however, as I could not secure a smooth transition of power for my heir and lost the election upon the death of my ruler.

Succeeded in fending off both William the Bastard's and Harald of Norway's invasion forces to become Harold Godwinson the Great. Led the Godwin dynasty to become the most prolific dynasty in the history of Europe by placing members of the family on the thrones of England, Scotland, Ireland, Andalusia and Jerusalem. Although the unity was broken in the 13th century by a feud between the most powerful members of the dynasty, the main line would survive as rulers of Jerusalem for another two hundred years.

Led the crusaders of the 4th crusade in sacking the city of Constantinople and building a new Latin Empire that would claim most of Greece and Bulgaria. By 1300 however, numerous defeats at the hands of the resurgent Byzantines would weaken the Latins until they finally lost control of their most prized possession, Constantinople, within 100 years of taking it.

Established a huge trade empire as Venice based on the 285 Rules of Acquisition (or at least, those we know about!) governing every decision i made in game. By game end the Venetian Empire stretched from the Atlantic Ocean to the Black Sea. The closest i've ever gotten to "world conquest."

United all of Northern Africa beneath one sultan before invading Sicily, and later, Italy. Did what Hannibal could not do and laid waste to Rome in all her dying glory, even renamed my capital 'Nova Carthago' for a bit of fun. The resulting clash between The HRE and myself set the Mediterranean on fire with conflict and ended with tens of thousands dead on both sides.

United southern Spain beneath the Sultanate of Andalusia and carved out a sizable realm for myself before the west targeted me for multiple crusades. As the fighting intensified, so too did the decline of the dynasty with numerous assassinations on the only capable rulers and sons who could have turned the situation around. By the 13th century the Sultanate of Andalusia collapsed after decades of mismanagement and military defeat.

Established a new Norseland in Scotland as Ivar the Boneless. With Scotland united and firmly control beneath his dynasty, the sons of Ivar were a constant threat to rulers in the North Sea, raiding nearby counties and resisting attempts at conversion for centuries to come.

and of course.. currently..

Rebuilt the Persian Sultanate from nothing as a Zoroastrian Ruler, ruthlessly converting all provinces back to Zoroastrianism and fighting constant holy wars against the Abbasid Caliphs of the west.

It's pretty fun to reflect back on all those amazing experiences. Ck2 isn't the most hardcore of paradox's titles but it's by a long way the most fun i've ever had with a game released by them.

[Hooahguy]

The Old Gods is on sale for half off so Im getting it, looks like Ill be playing as some pagans next time around!

[Beskar]

The Old Gods is on sale for half off so Im getting it, looks like Ill be playing as some pagans next time around!

Are you sure? On Steam, it is all of CK2 except for Old Gods in the sale. Unless you are referring to a different sale.

[Hooahguy]

Are you sure? On Steam, it is all of CK2 except for Old Gods in the sale. Unless you are referring to a different sale.

http://www.gamestop.com/pc/games/cru...ld-gods/109653

Im thinking of starting with the Swedish pagans first, mainly so I can make this my theme song:

[Chaotix]

Right on. My first Pagan was as Homgardr, the viking petty kingdom in Russia. Was alright, but I wouldn't recommend it. Duchy of Jylland, duchy of Sweden/Uppland (spelled with wierd foreigner letters), or maybe Jorvik would be the best introductions to the Pagan mechanics. If you manage to blob a bit in the beginning and be the biggest viking around, its actually pretty easy to do what you want. The hardest part is keeping your realm stable long enough to reform your religion and switch to primogeniture so you can build a large and wealthy enough realm to withstand the crusader-era once you survive the end of the dark ages. If you fail to secure a big, stable realm in the first 200 years or so, you'll probably be on the sharp end of a Holy War from somebody with an organized religion, and you'll have to switch--which isn't all bad, it can actually be a sound strategy.

I'd add Harald Fairhair, Petty King of Ostlandet to that list of good Norse characters to start with.

Historically he conquered all of Norway and is the founder of the kingdom.

The Swedes are always fun too, though.

[Myth]

I'd add Harald Fairhair, Petty King of Ostlandet to that list of good Norse characters to start with.

Historically he conquered all of Norway and is the founder of the kingdom.

The Swedes are always fun too, though.

That Harald was a pain in my buttox when I played as an Icelandic count. I still kicked him to the curb however, but it took some time. Now that I know how to develop my cities and family tree I think I'll give Iceland a second try. I personally enjoy starting as a Count, I view it as a greater challenge than Duke or King. Emperor is overkill.

I started as a Count in Britanny in 1066 and now have the Kingdom of Britanny and Kingdom of Burgundy for myself, as well as High Crown Authority, so almost getting that Primo which i desperately need with two Kingdom titles in my possession. France is wobbly, as is the HRE, and somehow Lotharingia managed to pop up and secure a place between the two.

I have not been paying attention in Italy, and now I find that it has been unified. We have a larg Italy blob and a very strong merchant empire of Pisa. Good thing that I upgraded Britanny so hard that I have more gold and troops than is viewed reasonable by the AI (so they abandoned all desires to bug me about 100 years ago).

[Monk]

I've had a few successful Duke starts, but only when they started as Independent. I've never had a game as a vassal count or duke where I lived more than a generation or two. What I'd really like to do next is try to take the Duchy of Saxony, break off from East Francia, and form and independent Catholic Germany. I see the AI do it almost every game, so it can't be that hard.

This is the goal of a game I am gonna start over the weekend. Either a Karling -> Germany or a Saxon Germany. Raise a powerful German state, defend Rome from heathens, take the holy lands, pacify the Slavic pagans, throw back the mongols... lots to do!

That extra 200 years adds so much depth to a single campaign it's staggering.

slightly related note... the AI formed the HRE in an observer game I let run last night while I was busy with other things. That's the first time i've seen that, and they became a pretty scary force. They'd united Lotharingia, East Francia and Italy beneath its command just as the Age of the Crusader began.

[Chaotix]

This is the goal of a game I am gonna start over the weekend. Either a Karling -> Germany or a Saxon Germany. Raise a powerful German state, defend Rome from heathens, take the holy lands, pacify the Slavic pagans, throw back the mongols... lots to do!

That extra 200 years adds so much depth to a single campaign it's staggering.

slightly related note... the AI formed the HRE in an observer game I let run last night while I was busy with other things. That's the first time i've seen that, and they became a pretty scary force. They'd united Lotharingia, East Francia and Italy beneath its command just as the Age of the Crusader began.

I was playing a game as Amalfi and Charles the Bald managed to unite ALL of the Carolingian kingdoms. Then he formed Francia.

I would be scared, but by that point I had already been forced to swear fealty to the the growing Byzantine Empire, which has been conquering new territory at a constant rate.

50 years later and Francia is still standing and quite formidable; had a couple of independence revolts from vassal kings but crushed them all. However, the Emperor had the unfortunate idea to also form the Holy Roman Empire. So as soon as someone survives to have more than a single male heir, that empire's gonna split. And actually, at that point it will probably be fairly historical, minus the presence of Karlings.

I'm starting to wonder with their sheer numbers, how the Karlings managed to almost completely die out by 1066, historically.

[Monk]

I'm starting to wonder with their sheer numbers, how the Karlings managed to almost completely die out by 1066, historically.

Imbecile rulers, internal pressures and viking raids mostly. They couldn't deal with the constant vassal factions that kept cropping up, and emptying the treasury to bribe off the vikings didn't help.

Those negative traits are a killer

[Chaotix]

You know what, here, have some screenshots. AI Francia is a sufficiently remarkable occurence.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here's Charles the Bald's great-grandson. I'm not sure when they created the HRE, but there's been a lucky string of one-son inheritances down to him and they've kept everything together. You can see he has Aquitaine and Burgundy left to himself, and then West Francia, Italy/Lotharingia, and East Francia/Bavaria as vassals. Literally every single kingdom in the region, the Karlings have.



My current liege. He's been on the throne since he was a baby. After surviving the initial succession war, nobody wanted to touch him and he started conquering, Italy-first. As soon as I knew I was next I swore fealty rather than lose everything. I'd been anticipating having to do just that, so I spent a lot of money ensuring I was Doge at the time, too.



Finally, me and my little Republic. My own family's ancestry goes back to Naples and other places in southern Italy, so I thought it would be fun to ruler-design a Patrician family and see where I could get. Off to a slow start so far due to the low-tech trade post penalty, but we're starting to speed up. The Emperor jacked crown authority up to Medium, so I can't consolidate among my fellow vassals. Yet. I am anticipating by the time he dies I'll have enough money and there will be enough support to lower Crown Authority, and then I can really get rolling.

Once I can create Sicily and take all of the de jure territory, I'll declare independence. That's the plan, anyway.

Also, a couple of tidbits:
-You can see Venice is gone. They got eaten by the Swiss Band when they couldn't pay their bills.
-Genoa also got destroyed, but was reformed as a Frankish-culture republic under the Karlings.
-The Cumans have reformed Tengri.
-There was a formidable-looking Pagan Kingdom of Lithuania earlier; they had most of Pomerania too. They're in a civil war now.
-Norse are up to all sorts of mischief but ultimately still fractured.

[Hooahguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How do you get that kind of screenshot?

[rvg]

Are there any long term drawbacks to reducing the number of duchies in the realm?

I'm still on my first CK2 game. Started out as Heinrich of HRE just so that I could learn the game mechanics without being killed, and lo and behold, 120 years/3 emperors later I'm still playing it. Anyway, I hate dukes. They're nothing but trouble. They scheme and they plot and then they scheme some more. They lead/join factions especially when a new emperor takes over and generally refuse to cooperate with me. So nowadays, whenever a duke rebels, I crush his little rebellion, revoke his duchy and immediately destroy it. I can eat the -50 rep hit with a few counts without a problem, but are there any other issues I should be aware of?

[Chaotix]

Are there any long term drawbacks to reducing the number of duchies in the realm?

I'm still on my first CK2 game. Started out as Heinrich of HRE just so that I could learn the game mechanics without being killed, and lo and behold, 120 years/3 emperors later I'm still playing it. Anyway, I hate dukes. They're nothing but trouble. They scheme and they plot and then they scheme some more. They lead/join factions especially when a new emperor takes over and generally refuse to cooperate with me. So nowadays, whenever a duke rebels, I crush his little rebellion, revoke his duchy and immediately destroy it. I can eat the -50 rep hit with a few counts without a problem, but are there any other issues I should be aware of?

Hmm... Only that the starting size of the HRE is about as big as you can get with mostly Counts, and if you expand and want to keep it that way it's going to get ridiculous.

Generally, Counts are easier to deal with individually than Dukes, but a pain to deal with as a group. For instance, say your realm, the HRE, consists of about 20 de jure Duchies. It's probably a little bit more than that, but this will suffice. You can (and should) hold two of those Duchies yourself, and as much land within them as possible. Then, say all your vassals are Duke-level: you have 18 vassals to deal with, total.

There are usually 2-6 counties in a Duchy. If you remove all the Duchies, suddenly you will find yourself with around 50-75 direct vassals instead of 18. They are all weaker, yes, but if they all dislike you they are much harder to bribe or threaten off wholesale than a bunch of Dukes.

With the HRE in particular, things are a little different since you have Elective monarchy, and Counts can't vote. So getting rid of Dukes you don't like can help you maintain the succession. If you change from Elective to Primogeniture, you won't have to worry about that. At that point it's probably a better idea to give Duke titles to your enemies' former vassals after you revoke them - turning an enemy into an ally, or at the very least keeping them busy. The only time I would really worry about vassals is if they start to get multiple Duke titles, as then they can form Kingdoms, and you don't want that. In particular, Bohemia can be a pain since they are not your culture, but I figure 120 years in they have either converted to German or you've successfully dealt with them.

[rvg]

...There are usually 2-6 counties in a Duchy. If you remove all the Duchies, suddenly you will find yourself with around 50-75 direct vassals instead of 18. They are all weaker, yes, but if they all dislike you they are much harder to bribe or threaten off wholesale than a bunch of Dukes...

122 vassals and counting... As for Bohemia, I asked my vassal the Pope to excomm the Bohemian Queen, tried to arrest her, she rebelled. Crushed her rebellion, revoked her Kingdom, then destroyed it.

[rvg]

If you have The Old Gods, the new tech system relies on Duchies to generate tech points. Basically, if a county isn't organized into a Duchy, it won't get any more advanced without sending the spymaster to steal tech from someone else.

Hmm... that just might be the reason for me to get TOG. Didn't plan on buying it since I had no interest in playing a Pagan faction, but that new mechanic is intriguing.

Without the Old Gods, the biggest reason to create duchies is vassal management. Yes, Counts are easy to control, but what can they do? In a civil war they'll get annexed by your neighbors. With High Crown Authority or lower, where vassals can still wage war, counts aren't going to get you very much new land. The only plus is easy squashing during times of rebelliousness (like during the early reign of a bad king).

Yeah, civil wars suck. I have basically promised myself to never ever allow a civil war to happen, i.e. every time I see a faction gather up more than 15% of my strength, I excomm/arrest its leader.