Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm not saying the grievances ever will be reasonably overcome. The human condition lends itself to creating differences, not bridging them--observe how different parts of the USA become more and more distinct over time.

What I am saying is that the differences between European nations are so small that when you are talking about a global world, its just silly. Hardly a one of Europe's nations can afford to truly stand alone, and it has been like that for a very long time.

I was writing a refusal but thought twice.

Again, I very much go against your idea of "Europe". But the same argument for the western white world holds true.

The idea of "Europeans" just doesn't stick with me. In a global world compared to Europe, there are still racial and cultural ties FAR more important than some "European allegiance".

Honestly speaking, I think that the "Europe" you talk of would rather spend their money helping Japan deal with an earthquake than they would helping the European Nation of Turkey if they were hit by an earthquake.

Not because Japan is more European than Turkey, but because Japan more closely adhere to the "European" culture you talk about.

So I agree and disagree. I agree with your meaning, it's the specifics I question.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah... You'r not allowed to be a racist unless you get a dog. *side topic - just started*

[Greyblades]

I'm sure the Indians thought the same before the British showed up.

But the indians had no nukes. The days of conquest are done, we are in the age of stalemates now, any threat that looms becomes moot with a mention of Mutually Assured Destruction, and failing that one call to America. Today we are by defintion untouchable, the only viable threats we face is from eachother and until that changes we have the luxury of going on as we allways have been.

A united Europe might come one day, but we dont have any imperative to rush it.

[Greyblades]

Right, A united Europe might come one day, and it probably should, but we can take our time doing it.

I can only imagine the amount of crap we'd have to deal with if we were to forced to implement a united europe under what we currently have.

[Fisherking]

Back on topic, there are some things going on you should know about.

Dick Durbin wants to pass a law giving free speech only to “Real Journalists”. We don’t count!

Another attack on the bill of rights?
http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/04/re...rnment-spying/

I would rather have posted Durbin’s article rather than an Op-edd but if you wish to read his you have to register at the Chicago Sun-Times to read it so the link doesn’t work otherwise.





Was this noticed? http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/04/re...rnment-spying/


From their web site:

Beyond the Edward Snowden Question
Posted 1 week ago
by Robert Heldreth
The man who leaked the NSA's surveillance program, Edward Snowden, has received a lot of positive attention lately, especially from blogs and social media. Many think his act was heroic, and that the people of the United States deserved to know about this program. But it is a more controversial issue than it may appear to you. Many believe that Snowden is a traitor whose publication of secret documents aided our enemies and hurt our country. Still more do not trust his motivations for leaking the information, or fleeing to Hong Kong and then to Russia.#
Yet no matter how we feel about Edward Snowden, all of us have to face the fact that our government has been actively spying on us without probable cause. Remaining silent about this blatant violation of the Bill of Rights is no longer an option, regardless of your opinion of the man himself, or the other issues that have divided us.
We must now shift the bulk of our attention away from Edward Snowden. The most pressing and urgent question is this: How will we respond now that we know that the government is violating the constitution on this scale? And what actions must we take to ensure that our leaders not only hear our voices, but listen?#
Many organizations are taking a stand right now. Mozilla started the website stopwatching.us, the ACLU is preparing a# fight in the courts, and grassroots movements are popping up across the country to speak out. But there are many more actions that must be taken, and the person who can most make a difference is you.
The first action is to force our representatives to take notice of us.# Call or email your congressperson and senators# daily from now until the fourth of July, holding them accountable for their complacency regarding the NSA and PRISM, and demanding action to protect us from all unconstitutional surveillance methods. Visit# restorethefourth.net# and sign up for your local protest. Even if you can’t make it, you can use the website to# print out flyers# or join the conversation on# social media sites. The more we blog, tweet, post, and comment about this issue, the more citizens that take notice, and the louder our voices get. Your skills can help out as well. From computer programmers to musicians, all are welcome and needed in local movements and by the# national organizers.
July 4th 2013 will be a fun filled celebration of our independence and the birth of our great country. It will also be a day that we can all join together as citizens, and demand that our government uphold our constitution.


http://www.restorethefourth.net/blog/

And also this:http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...224388386.html

[Ironside]

You could absolutely replace my usage of Europe with white western world. I avoid doing that because I don't want to be confused for a racist.

Do the latinos count into that?

[Husar]

Keep in mind that I've been arguing for a way of looking at things, not for an actual campaign of unification. If I was a European, I would be very politically opposed to the EU not unlike Frags himself (minus the strange Islamophobia).

What's wrong with you now?

Oh wait, you're an American and need to protect your hegemony.

[Montmorency]

An interesting thought:

These telecomms spying operations must require a lot of data storage, likely meaning consumer-model HDDs. That sort of magnetic storage doesn't last forever, however, or even that many decades.

So the NSA probably has a metaphorical mountain of hard drives in some storage facility somewhere. Hopefully, at least. (If it's on a consumer-available cloud of some sort, then I would worry about long-term security...) So, while all that must be expensive, I imagine that beyond that quite a lot of labor-cost must go to maintenance of this stuff and the transfer of data to storage.

At some point, will the NSA take on the task of moving over all the data onto newer modes or items of storage? Who will they hire - temps, as for the census? How will these deal with it in a secure fashion? How much will it cost the taxpayer to continue to continue handling secret recordings of their grandparents?

Gnomesayin'?

[Fisherking]

That is an utterly ridiculous statement! Culturally singular Europe? Did some one hijack the GC account?

It sounds more like someone with a V or a W is behind this stuff.

Are you smoking something funny ATM?

[Empire*Of*Media]

of course hero! Like Julian Asange! standing against a powerful worldwide imperialism is heroic! but still, many many many more is to be revealed of USA secrets! this secrets that he revealed was not that much!
This Superclass or called the ELITE will not let their good top secrets be revealed!!

[HoreTore]

Anna Chapman has asked Snowden to marry her.

The guy is definitely the winner. You all lost.

[Strike For The South]

Arabs exploded out of the peninsula and swept away 600 years of Eastern Christendom.

How is that not colonization?

Do they need sailing ships?

[Husar]

Anna Chapman has asked Snowden to marry her.

The guy is definitely the winner. You all lost.

Like I said, dumb move not to stay in Russia.

Excuse me while I try to get some secret government documents....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Apparently so: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-marry-me.html

So - Traitor, and now international laughing stock.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'd like mentions of the future Mrs AV in a separate thread... Preferably with pictures.

[Fisherking]

Apparently so: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-marry-me.html

So - Traitor, and now international laughing stock.

It is fine that you choose to follow the axiom, My Country Right or Wrong in assessing his guilt.

I, on the other hand, and a larger number of Americans, tend to follow Mark Twain’s definition “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”

Snowden obviously betrayed that government but he did a service to the American People and the rest of the world in pointing up those abuses.

The rest of what he has done or said is of little weight beside that.

It was not anything some of us did not know or some of us may have suspected but he brought us the proof of those activities which could possibly stop or slow down their abuses.

[Brenus]

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” Agree. Once upon a time, we (the West) were welcoming the Heroes coming from the Eastern Block, after having denounced the KGB heavy hand on USSR and the rest of the World…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is fine that you choose to follow the axiom, My Country Right or Wrong in assessing his guilt.

I, on the other hand, and a larger number of Americans, tend to follow Mark Twain’s definition “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”

Snowden obviously betrayed that government but he did a service to the American People and the rest of the world in pointing up those abuses.

The rest of what he has done or said is of little weight beside that.

It was not anything some of us did not know or some of us may have suspected but he brought us the proof of those activities which could possibly stop or slow down their abuses.

I disagree - he has floated US law - he is quite clearly a traitor under the law, and he has fled to avoid prosecution. Had he been a hero, he would have stayed and submitted himself to the legal system. Either he would be acquitted, demonstrating the strength of American Justice, or he would be convicted and his conviction would spur change.

I support of this argument - I submit the case of Socrates.

[Montmorency]

I submit the case of Socrates.

Do we know that this meant anything to anyone other than Plato?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I support of this argument - I submit the case of Socrates.

I have read the Crito and I seem to recall Socrates argument to be as follows. Correct me if my reading was off please.

P1: It is worse to do harm than to suffer it.
P2: To violate the law, is to go against the wishes of the populace who have put these laws in place, and is to do an act of harm against them and the rule of law.
P3: Therefore we must follow the laws no matter how just or unjust they have been crafted and implemented.

If you wish to present Socrates as a case, you must be ready to defend this defense. Premise 1 is certainly not set in stone among many people here I would think. Premise two is also certainly up for debate as well.

Do you mean to tell me that since you follow Socrates' example that you are a complete pacifist?

[Papewaio]

Justice =/= Law

Socrates view is that group think drones trump individual freedom.

That point of view might work in a facist society it clearly is at odds with the founding documents of the US.

[Brenus]

Socrates’ case: I take (I didn’t check) it as ACIN describes it: So the German’s traitors are the anti-Nazi, the Russian’s traitors are the ones against U.S.S.R., the Cubans traitors are the Anti-Castro ones, and so on. So the Baroness Thatcher was right when telling that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist…
This is a strange view of the justice and the world. If injustice is the law, it is justice because it is legal…

More seriously, what about the “justice” at Guantanamo Bay and “the strength of American Justice”? I would say he Knows it and decided wisely not to go for it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I just don't get it. Its never wrong alert the world to an injustice.

If your argument against that is that spying isn't injustice, its government, then I respond by saying that it has never been properly put to the people in the first place. Of course its an injustice.

Your notion that he should have stayed and gone to trial is just silly. That's asking someone to fall on their sword in a way you can't possibly relate to, or have the moral standing to ask of them.

I have read the Crito and I seem to recall Socrates argument to be as follows. Correct me if my reading was off please.

P1: It is worse to do harm than to suffer it.
P2: To violate the law, is to go against the wishes of the populace who have put these laws in place, and is to do an act of harm against them and the rule of law.
P3: Therefore we must follow the laws no matter how just or unjust they have been crafted and implemented.

If you wish to present Socrates as a case, you must be ready to defend this defense. Premise 1 is certainly not set in stone among many people here I would think. Premise two is also certainly up for debate as well.

Do you mean to tell me that since you follow Socrates' example that you are a complete pacifist?

The title of the thread was "Hero or Traitor".

My argument is two fold.

1. Under US law he is a traitor - once for disclosing classified information that harms the US, twice for running from the authorities after.

2. He is not a hero because he ran - by running he abandons the country he purports to benefit, by running to Her enemies he benefits then and harms the US. If Snowden faced the law of the US he would be putting up a defense, as it is he has run and to me that suggests he thinks he is guilty. He knew the law when he did what he did, subsequently he has made every effort to avoid the consequences of his actions.

Oh - yes - ACIN is fundamentally correct about the Crito - and it seems Xenophon agreed.

[Papewaio]

Which US is he harming?

The government with secret courts and by implication laws?
The Consitution?
Or the people?

Which is the most important?

[HopAlongBunny]

He showed the wisdom of a messenger with bad news for people who don't want to hear it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Which US is he harming?

The government with secret courts and by implication laws?
The Consitution?
Or the people?

Which is the most important?

Trying to separate the three is absurd - 9/11 happened to people in the US because of how other people saw the US Government. The suggestion that the US has "secret laws" is totally unjustified - per definition a law has to be published in the Statute Books to be enforceable.

Now - just in case people missed it - I'll state it again. My argument stands specifically on the classified information Snowden has released about foreign espionage acts carried out by the US against other states. All states do this for their own security, including Germany, and the US has not been "caught" at it, the US has been betrayed by one of its own spies.

Had Snowden stopped short of that and confined himself to domestic abuses of the Constitution, he would be on fairly solid ground as a Whistleblower. If memory serves - didn't he only flee the US once the foreign files had been released?

[Papewaio]

There is a difference between the three.

One is the State bureaucracy and apparatus.
The other the ideals it is founded on.
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

The third the people it is supposed to be governed on behalf of.

"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

It is supposed to be a government of and for the people. One which protects the people's liberties, freedoms and pursuit of happiness.

A government which spies on its people's every communication at whim. That denies that is does so even as it pursues broader and deeper methods of doing so. A government which will use these powers out of context and out of proportion for crimes that do not materially impact on the safety of its people.

Yes there is a definitive difference between the three. It has been a staple of these boards for people to denounce a government yet embrace a nations people. What is rarely a odds is a country to veer so far and hard from its own character.

As the man of steel is out. Lets remember how the US used to be summed up "Truth, Justice and the American Way" these used to be synonymous not juxtapositions.

[Fisherking]

Well said Pape


And yes, they have secret courts. Snowden’s case would not be an open trial. Chances are he would get a military tribunal, but I am not sure on that.

As the programs etc. are secret, which kept people from taking the government to court on them, it is unlikely he would get anything like a normal trial but he was charged under the WWI espionage act which in its self has serious constructional issues.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This would be true if you could trust the system to give him a fair trial. As has already been pointed out, that's unlikely to be the case.

Now I find that you seem to be unable or unwilling to separate the government and the people. One is perfectly capable of being a patriot and being hated by one's government.

I'm not saying they're inseparable - I'm saying that separating them is a false distinction. Saying "oh, it only harms the government" is an excuse with an extremely short lifespan.

If you know your history you'll know that one of the first shots in the Colonial fight for rights and representation came in of a case against a printer. That aside, the US can have his trial behind closed doors but they can't pretend it isn't going on.

I believe that if Snowden had only exposed the Verizon abuses, he would have a fair trial because of public opinion. By overstepping into the genuinely treasonous he has allowed himself to be painted as an Enemy of the State - running has only made that worse.

Snowden's actions have undermined any good he might have done.

[Fisherking]

I believe that if Snowden had only exposed the Verizon abuses, he would have a fair trial because of public opinion. By overstepping into the genuinely treasonous he has allowed himself to be painted as an Enemy of the State - running has only made that worse.

Snowden's actions have undermined any good he might have done.

No, I don’t think so.

He has surely harmed the government, one guilty of disregarding their own founding laws and documents while perusing the theft of rights and freedoms granted their own citizens.

So we spy on China, and China spies on us, big deal. We also spy on the EU and there governments and citizens. How does knowing this harm the American people?

It only shows the extent of government abuses that are taking place world wide.

The secret courts don’t use the Constitution in assessing the legality of an issue or determining its legality. They use the Patriot Act and the Defense Authorization Act for that. And the Constitution be damned.

There is no justice in federal law, it is just a legal system. What happened with Nuremberg? Isn’t an illegal order still illegal? If you don’t disobey are you not guilty of the crime?

Crossing the government is like crossing the Mafia. You would have to be mad to turn your self in.

The NDAA allows for government detention without trial or representation in a secret location indefinitely. People who are a problem for them need never be charged or tried. Only disappeared.