Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

[-Nietzsche-]

Okay, you quite often mentioned the "petite" shape of these Warrior-Women. Well, I'm not convinced. Take this one Girl of the "Ending-Times" of Amazon culture, that Michael Schulz from Goettingen inspected. She has had the muscles of a today's male Bodybuilder... and with 1,6 meters height she was 10 centimeters taller than the average Greek guy those days. She, riding one of these little horses you discovered would look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, riding a Shetland-Pony ;-)
If you can't inspect the bones of these Women, a good indicator for big muscles is also the size of the arrowhead-to-shaft-joints. If the holes do only measure about 4 millimeters, it's for a barreled shaft. These shafts are used for 80+ pound Bows, because "normal" Shafts would simply explode before leaving the Bow (happened to me once with my 55 pound Assyrian Bow - wasn't funny). In my Shooting-Club, we only have 2 guys that can handle such amount of power. Both of them look like Hercules (well, one like Hercules who ate too much LOL)

[parthian shot]

Okay, you quite often mentioned the "petite" shape of these Warrior-Women. Well, I'm not convinced. Take this one Girl of the "Ending-Times" of Amazon culture, that Michael Schulz from Goettingen inspected. She has had the muscles of a today's male Bodybuilder... and with 1,6 meters height she was 10 centimeters taller than the average Greek guy those days. She, riding one of these little horses you discovered would look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, riding a Shetland-Pony ;-)
If you can't inspect the bones of these Women, a good indicator for big muscles is also the size of the arrowhead-to-shaft-joints. If the holes do only measure about 4 millimeters, it's for a barreled shaft. These shafts are used for 80+ pound Bows, because "normal" Shafts would simply explode before leaving the Bow (happened to me once with my 55 pound Assyrian Bow - wasn't funny). In my Shooting-Club, we only have 2 guys that can handle such amount of power. Both of them look like Hercules (well, one like Hercules who ate too much LOL)

FYI, Pea, our animation lead is a Level III archery instructor, and a docent/weapon master worked on weaponry of antiquity, and I myself have been to Archery World Competition. So I understand the points you are making, but we don't agree with them at all.

Deformity aside, for a given people, if you can find a female of great physique, within that genetic trait, you should find a male of even more imposing appearance. So the argument of female being more petite is still perfectly valid. Because the comparison is within her own genetic group.

Taking the Far East Celt for example, these are mummies recovered from Tarim Basin in China. The female can be 6 foot tall or 1.8 meter (as mentioned in my white paper), and the male is 6 foot and half or 1.95 meter. So you can argue that the 6 foot tall female is a giant, but the male would have been even taller. So the term "petite" is always true when you compared within the same genetic group.

And in the white paper, I also discussed that Amazons has equestrian breeding program which are few and far between in the 300-600BC time frame. I can imagine a 5'4" (that is 1.6 meter) female perfectly capable of riding a special breed of horses.

The female skeletons of the ancient equestrian societies uncovered in Ural and Central Asia, who are Iranistan origin (vs being Mongoloids) are between 4.5' to 5.6' (1.35 meter to 1.65 meter).
And note that I would never use one taller girl against an "averaged Greek guy", that is simply not scientific.

Also, another disagreement is that, I am 5'10" (1.75 meter) tall, and I rode steppe ponies while I was over in Russia, Central Asia, as well as Mongolia, it is not like us humans are so gigantic, we instantly crush the poor little pony. In equestrianism, it is a matter of how fast you can ride the pony and for how long.

Another little known concern, which I documented before, is that, the taller the rider, the closer their feet are to the ground. While this might be OK during daytime march, it is highly dangerous during night march, or during battle. Riders are known to lose their leg because in the heat of the battle, or during movement in the darkness, their feet got cut or torn from obstacle close to the ground.

As for pulling 55lb-80lb bows, the real physical limit is the pressure of the bow string on the wrist and the finger. That is why the horse archers use thumb rings, not finger tabs or leather gloves like the longbow archers. That is also why in the white paper, I specifically mentioned the use of double bows for horse archery, this was first published for Amazons Total War mod. Bow like that allows for longer limb lives, and easier pull.

As for shaft implosion, the integrity of the arrowhead is the main concern, the shaft only needs to be strong enough to withstand the stacking load at the tail end. That is why we emphasize on the "spine stiffness" of the arrows. The shaft is always made to flex (or warp depending on your point of view) since antiquity, most wooden arrow needs to be picked specifically for its spine stiffness to match the draw weight of the bow.

The ancient steppe ritual of breaking arrows when making alliance or making friends is grounded in the knowledge that if an arrow can NOT be snapped by the archer, it has the spine stiffness good enough for the archer's bow, since each archer would have a bow made by his/her family since childhood that matches the draw weight of the individual. It later evolved into having two archers breaking their own arrows to signify that they have found new and better arrows in each other during the oath.

[-Nietzsche-]

You really have assembled a rock-soild team, there :-)
I do have to mention a few details, though...
I'm shooting all of my bows by thumb-ring. Personally I belive that it's a little more precise than using the tree-finger-method, but to be frank, I know that's just imagination ;-)
The point is: I am NOT able to draw a really strong bow by thumb. I have to use my fingers, there. I cannot confirm that the limitation are the wrist and fingers, also:
A friend of mine (the Hercules who ate too much) has got a 95# English Longbow, which I can pull just about half way out (hey! I'm not THAT weak LOL). I haven't got any problems with my wrist or/and fingers at all. My Breast- and upper Arm-Muscles are simply not strong enough to pull it out further...
Surely it isn't healthy to draw those extreme weights all the time (I guess you already encountered some skeletons with completely messed up fingers), but you have to develop some serious muscles first, before you can have a chance to destroy your hand ;-)
I'm sorry for not having made myself totally clear with the "petite-term". There is no doubt that, within one genetic group, the average female is always smaller than the average man - that's scientifically evident.
What I meant was that these Women were not petite in comparison to their adversaries on the field.
Also, even though they were smaller than their own men, if only the women did extensive training for war - and not their men - these women would have become more sturdily in shape than their men - so one cannot name them petite.

[-Nietzsche-]

Sorry for harassing you with all these "Hey, did you do your job right?" Questions - I'm writing on a histotainment Comic-Book Series about Amazons (The first one is already out for some time, now) and I need to know what's a fact and what's only a theory, before I present anything to my readers.
I have to be so neurotic with this, because Amazons are still a Topic most people in Germany think of beeing as realistic as Flying Saucers or the Loch Ness Monster. Even many german Archaeologists with big Names are still ignoring every fact you throw at their desks and keep saying: Women never waged war, because women are weak, not as intelligent as men and only good for cooking and raising children (yes, some people still live in the Fifties...). The most ridiculous quote I have ever heard from one of these guys: It is impossible for a woman to bear a weapon, because women haven't got the right Anatomy. One could laugh about this, if it weren't that sad.
So, in an atmosphere like this you can easily imagine, that you get called Erich van Däniken pretty quick if you call something a fact that is just a theory.
This is by far not as tough as your Problems with some men, trying to represent their own, personal interpretation of a certain religion, but I hope, you understand...

...before I'm going to ask my next "did you do your job right?"-Question LOL
Some friends of mine, who are somewhat into the german medieval age (mostly having fun with Talhoffer), told me, that these giant Knight's Horses everyone thinks of, when you mention German Knights, were extremely rare and valuable, and were only used for battle - and nothing else. Their Everyday-Horses were indeed tiny little animals the size of a mule at best.
My question now:
Have you only found this tiny little horses, or a big one, too, occasionally?
This small horses might work for horse archery and scouting duty perfectly well - but remember the 1,6-meter-Girl, holding a 2,2-meter-Lance (they found this thing in her grave).
I have no Idea, if this still might work - or if this would be more like a charging Hamster ;-)
Did anyone do some energy-calculations on charging horses of different sizes?

[parthian shot]

Sorry for harassing you with all these "Hey, did you do your job right?" Questions - I'm writing on a histotainment Comic-Book Series about Amazons (The first one is already out for some time, now) and I need to know what's a fact and what's only a theory, before I present anything to my readers.
I have to be so neurotic with this, because Amazons are still a Topic most people in Germany think of beeing as realistic as Flying Saucers or the Loch Ness Monster. Even many german Archaeologists with big Names are still ignoring every fact you throw at their desks and keep saying: Women never waged war, because women are weak, not as intelligent as men and only good for cooking and raising children (yes, some people still live in the Fifties...). The most ridiculous quote I have ever heard from one of these guys: It is impossible for a woman to bear a weapon, because women haven't got the right Anatomy. One could laugh about this, if it weren't that sad.
So, in an atmosphere like this you can easily imagine, that you get called Erich van Däniken pretty quick if you call something a fact that is just a theory.
This is by far not as tough as your Problems with some men, trying to represent their own, personal interpretation of a certain religion, but I hope, you understand...

...before I'm going to ask my next "did you do your job right?"-Question LOL
Some friends of mine, who are somewhat into the german medieval age (mostly having fun with Talhoffer), told me, that these giant Knight's Horses everyone thinks of, when you mention German Knights, were extremely rare and valuable, and were only used for battle - and nothing else. Their Everyday-Horses were indeed tiny little animals the size of a mule at best.
My question now:
Have you only found this tiny little horses, or a big one, too, occasionally?
This small horses might work for horse archery and scouting duty perfectly well - but remember the 1,6-meter-Girl, holding a 2,2-meter-Lance (they found this thing in her grave).
I have no Idea, if this still might work - or if this would be more like a charging Hamster ;-)
Did anyone do some energy-calculations on charging horses of different sizes?

- On women not able to bear weapon

That depends on what equipment and what tactics. My theses maintain that with better mobility and stand-off capability, women can out match any men's army.
Modern women's real problem is her attitude and her upbringing, thanks to 3,000 years of brainwashing by the patriarchal societies.

- On knight's war mounts

The only known ancient horse taller than 14 hands is the Akhal-Teke horse, its DNA is shown to be the ancestors of almost all the war mounts through out the history. Whether the breed itself is a cross-bred Assyrian cavalry horses is not known. Far East Celt is also the first people known to domesticate the horses, so the Akhal-Teke horses might have been passed on from the Far East Celt.

This is the same horse a Chinese Emperor made a replica of the horse in gold and trying to get live ones from the Ferghana (or Dayuan) Kingdom far to the west of China in order to provide better horses for the Chinese cavalry. When the kingdom refused the gift, the emperor waged a 10 years war against them trying to get live Akhal-Teke horses. This is the beginning of the Silk Road.

My theory is that the most of ancient horses have bred to be larger, not for cavalry mounts, but to draw horse carts and carriage, or plow the fields. Most of these horses are unable to break into gallop or charge, the typical of these horses are the Brabancon, or Belgium heavy horses. When they lost most of their war mounts over the war with Russia after 1812, some French made the mistake of using these horses for their heavy cavalry regiments, and in several battles, the horses were unable to charge, so the desperate cavalry soldiers "march" the horse to displace the enemy formation while understandably suffering heavy casualties.

And from the time before the Alexander The Great, people have tried to cross breed the heavy farm horses with tall and more agile race horses, and pray and hope the result can be used for cavalry. The Spanish Andalusian war horse is the secret work of Benedictine monks who successfully bred a heavy horse suitable for cavalry work from the offspring of captured Moorish war mounts with local horses.
But this is is one success in countless of failures.
If you trace the lineage. the Moorish horses are cross-bred Arabian horses, and the Arabian horses are cross-bred Akhal-Teke. As you can see, there aren't much of other mixtures which means in the entire history of cavalry, new suitable war mounts were only successfully bred a few times.

- 2.2 meter lance

So here we talk about the use of lance in cavalry combat, not ceremonials. If you ask me, we have got most cavalry animation all wrong (Rome II included), before the adaptation of stirrups, lancer charging the enemy with under the shoulder hold (like most jousting scene we see from the games or movies) will get unseated at once when the lance hit the intended target.
Before the incorporation of stirrup into cavalry combat, almost all lancer charges are over the shoulder hold which translate the impact upwards, not directly against the rider. The much talked about Kantos spear, for example, which the rider holds with both hands, merely suggest that the war horse is trained in the Central Asian fashion, meaning the rider can stir and direct the horse using the knees and the lower legs. The charge is still using the over the shoulder hold, so now if you can visualized a cavalry charge by the Sarmatian Kantos cavalry, all the first line trooper in that lancer units are not tugging their lances under their arm pit, but actually raise both hands up and jab the spear (or lance) downwards. So are the Alexander's cavalry shown in all the contemporary mosaic and period current sculptures.

Avars (Aaorsii) are the only people known to use metal stirrup in battle, and even then their lance are considerable shorter, only at 1.8 meter.

So what is the big deal with 2.2 meter "lance"?, well, without stirrup, any "lancer" can not charge the enemy with 2.2 meter lance because, at 2.2 meter length even with both hands holding the lance high, the impact angle is so small, even with the over the shoulder hold, the result is almost the same as the under the shoulder hold, and imparts almost a direct impact to the rider. Unless this rider is some ancient version Olympic Pole Vaulting jumper, on horseback no less.

The above hypothesis of mine is anthropologically sound and completely substantiated by period-correct mosaic or other archaeological artifacts.

So my feeling of what that girl is, and the "lance" is, is that

1. she is a ceremonial figure (the "lance" is her symbol of authority during the ceremony),
2. she is a standard bearer, which means her "lance" is not a lance at all, but a pole with spearhead to hoist standard or color for her people.
3. she is a member of some kind of suicide corp. meaning the very tactics of her unit is to hit the enemy, and get un-seated from the horse, and prepared to suffer the injury, death or capture.
4. her unit uses a completely hypothetical rope/lether stirrup. which we have no way of knowing if this is true or not.

- Horse archery and scout

Small horses are not necessarily faster than fast horses, and small does not mean it will out-maneuver the heavier horses. On the contrary, a good race quality horse will most certainly overtake a steppe pony.

So the scouts are usually equipped with the best and the fastest horses available such that they can overrun any potential threats.

What small ponies signify though, is that they are economical. Steppe ponies will survive the harsh winter with minimum food and water, when most other horses are long gone.

[-Nietzsche-]

"Unless this rider is some ancient version Olympic Pole Vaulting jumper" RoFl :-D Great way to describe it.
Thank you for your detailed and illuminating answer :-)
With this background, there is only one probable solution for the 2,2 meter problem:
It is not a lance - it's a long spear, as you already suggested.
If we sum up everything you told us about horses and lancing-techniques, it is practically impossible to use this thing as a lance.
Alas, this is, how it is, all too often: Someone uses an incorrect term - and everyone runs into the wrong direction.
This girl surely has been one hell of a warrior (the examination of her bones made that obvious), but not on a horseback.
Findings like this show us, that these Women were dangerous adversaries, wether mounted or on foot.

P.S.:
"Modern women's real problem is her attitude and her upbringing, thanks to 3,000 years of brainwashing by the patriarchal societies."
Hey! You are stealing my words ;-)

[parthian shot]

Vice's interview with Warrior Women of Asgarda.

Their leader, Keterina Tarnovska claims lineage from Ukrainian Amazons.

Please note that though the view expressed in this video shares some similarity with the Amazons Total War mod's anthropological theses, they are completely independent movement from the mod or Parthian Shot's theses.

Also please exercise caution and viewer discretion because of some mature scene or topics: