Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

[Husar]

These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs

Well, in that case it could be worse.

As for the rest, I still consider apologizing for some nazi worshippers worse than saying that not all immigrants are criminals.
Golden Dawn is not some harmless neighborhood watch, it's a dangerous organization.

And joining some murderous nazis instead of forming a party that actually representes an opposition to violent immigrants or badly executed immigration is quite lazy and shows an utter lack of judgement or education. The latter is a real problem as Rhyfelwyr pointed out. One more reason to think the government should provide a proper education for everyone.

[Montmorency]

I think more specifically Panzer's point is that Muslims, like blacks, just suck and should stay away from our pristine Heimat.

[Papewaio]

Colonial aka Imperialism normally had the stated aim of making profit. Whatever was the cheapest method of getting goods was normally done. Mass murder was normally avoided as it depleted the labour pool, pushed up prices and increased instabilty which meant paying for more soldiers.

It got so expensive that before New Zealand joined the British Empire the British were trying to figure out how to scale back the number of colonies. Independence was a long way off but it was a solution the Brits were happy with.

Nazi Germany mass murdered its own citizens and those of countries it captured. Not because they offered resistance or because it was profitable. They killed them because of idealogical reasons. The mass murdered had the wrong religion, wrong sexuality, the wrong politics or the wrong handicap.

It wasn't for profit, it wasn't even neccesarily for security and it was done on an industrial scale (something IMDHO which is a Teutonic trait not something from facism otherwise the Italians would have shown better organizational skills).

[Montmorency]

If all that's the case, then it's strange of him to say:

It's easy to judge anti-immigrant sentiments when you haven't lived with them. These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs, and is instead only interested in chasing benefits through Europe.

There is a certain idealized notion of the immigrant that is strongly reinforced in contemporary Western thought, but spend a bit of time in these areas and it becomes clear that these people, especially those flocking to Europe, bring the same disfunction, petty rivalries, and violence that has kept their respective homelands in the third world. I don't blame the average working class Grecian for observing the crumbling world around him and concluding that his reality is not being understood or addressed by the current major parties.

As for Golden Dawn's alleged violence, one must also consider the violence perpetrated against them by immigrants and their Marxist allies - it certainly goes both ways. These people are fighting a vicious street war for their families and their homes and now face a crackdown by a government that no longer represents them. It would not surprise me if they become more violent, and I would not blame them.

That doesn't sound very much like 'I want to stabilize the size of my national group and focus our attention and resources on internal affairs and development'.

Or at least, it sounds like there's something a bit more - subtle - going on...

[Montmorency]

Not really so much racist as "xenophobic" or "ethnocentric".

I get a 'those poor stalwart peasants are witnessing the violation of their patrimony by savage hordes of (swarthy) foreigners' sort of vibe.

[Fragony]

While I am not going to agree with Panzer I do understand him. The golden dawn is a stretch too far for me though. Blame the ones who are responsible, not those that are here because of their policies, it just isn't fair. More fair, put the burden on those who support it, where people vote for immigration, usually people from 99% white neighbourhoods who put their kids on a 99% white schools (obligatory negroe), and see how they like it when it becomes their own reality, instead of what they feel others should do. All this nonsense will be over very soon.

[Husar]

I never said he wasn't using talking points that are Racist, I just don't think he believes them. Or rather, he earnestly doesnt think it is racist.

Not really so much racist as "xenophobic" or "ethnocentric".

I get a 'those poor stalwart peasants are witnessing the violation of their patrimony by savage hordes of (swarthy) foreigners' sort of vibe.

As much as I liked to believe that PJ isn't racist, I find that hard to believe as well given that he is part of a relatively wealthy family himself and owns several expensive guns. It sounds about as believable as saying that the industrials in the NSDAP really sincerely cared about the poor russian working classes and that's why they wanted to remove all the, in their eyes, evil jews from Russia.

I thought PJ had grown up from the days where he said stuff like "1000 Afghans aren't worth the life of a single American" but I'm not so sure anymore...

I don't think anybody here would seriously let such an explanation count if I said that the poor 9/11 bombers were really just trying to keep the imperialist Americans out of their precious Heimat to keep their limit resources for their precious Arabian national Heimat which they only want to keep free of foreigners who come to take their stuff (limited resources). From an Arabian POV I could also add the whole "if only you had lived with them, they drink alcohol, smash glass on the floor and pee onto the floor and the seats in the toilet stalls, those barbarians" - thing to make it perfect. Actually that's why I'm not fond of student parties anymore and I'm not even Arabian.

Also Heimat is a German word, of course it's a superior word.

[Brenus]

“i say ok it maybe be truth but have u seen it?! have u researched it without any media influenced or ignorancy or anything one & narrow minded?! NO!” Oh… You are doing the questions and the answers?
So, Yes, I have seen it, at least what the Nazi didn’t have time to destroy (plus family/village history) and not only once (in France, Austria, Serbia, Croatia). And yes, I studied it. The best in all the Holocausts Deniers is the fact that the Courageous Nazis never denied it (only their heirs), they just told it was not them, only the dead Nazis were responsible for it. We have more documents, plans and buildings left by the Nazis than we will ever need to know the truth.

“we shouldnt stick to the details, but u say burning the villages! but i say it was not what u r told to see then believe! because the villages that they set to fire supported many many rebels” I could laugh if it was not so sad: the 2 only partisans in my village was my Grand-father and my grandmother, and they even were not there when the SS came… YOUR problem is YOU believe that it is history when it is something still very alive in our villages…
The other thing YOU are missing is History is NOT written by Victors, but by survivors and following post-war political Agenda. Reason why people is the West still believe in “USSR was saved by Western Weapons” and believed that the Western Allies had better Armies that the Soviets.

“u r told to believe this by mass producing Documentaries & Movies” Nope. I don’t believe. I know, but studies and proofs left by the Murderers. If I see a Medieval Castle, I don’t believe in a Castle, I see it. Nor you believe in a car, or planes. They are just there. But I suppose in few centuries, people like you will explain that cars and planes are just big hoaxes… YOUR problem is YOU believe in what you want to believe, whatever proofs and evidences of the crimes are. We have the plans, the buildings, the perpetrators, the names of the victims (not all, I grant you this), but you still deny (de facto, you do) because that what you want to do.

“why not speak & discuss about this like what they claim in a FREE & DEMOCRATIC world?” Because the Holocaust Deniers, as the names told you, don’t want to discuss it. They deny it. As you do. I can ask you where are the Dutch Jews, the Hungarian Jews, the Roms Community of Darda (Croatia), you will still not answer the questions and deny it happened. Where are the Jews deported by the French of Pétain and hand-over to the Nazi? The French Railways that carried them under the order of the German Authorities have been PAID for it, so we know with this kind of documents (and in all Europe we have thousands of this kind of documents, in all Countries) we know that Jews were deported to Poland. So where are they? Why they didn’t came back… Answer: They are all dead when the Russian/USSR, English, French and US troops liberated the Camps.
I interviewed one of the foot Soldier belonging to the 2 DB (2nd Armoured Division) who did just that, and to see his eyes, and his skin when telling me that… But I supposed he was paid by the Jews/Zionist and USA to tell me this….

“why the world doesnt focus on Armenian Genocid or Kurdish Genocide or Bulgarian genocide or German Genocide & .... why the so called genocide must be focused on a peoples that have much 80% of world economy & Money?!” The Armenian Genocide is very well documented and discussed. Some said it is not the right qualification, figures are not discussed… What Kurdish genocide, or Bulgarian or German? Never exist only in the ones who want to deny the real Holocaust.
As your last sentence, it is just pure and plain Anti-Semitism. If you just look at the pictures of the deported, you will easily see how rich where the Polish Jews, or Russians, or Hungarians…

“(Does anybody know about this?!?! NO!!)” Very well known facts. Why shouldn't they? Did you STUDY the position and acts of the Ethnic Germans in the Countries they were expelled from? And in what hand you are saying for the Nazi’s crimes, well it was war, then for the Allies one, you just explain how bad they were.
Like when the Western Powers left Warsaw in the hand of Stalin, forgetting that Stalin did exactly the same in Greece, where the British reinstalled the King.

[Pannonian]

As much as I liked to believe that PJ isn't racist, I find that hard to believe as well given that he is part of a relatively wealthy family himself and owns several expensive guns. It sounds about as believable as saying that the industrials in the NSDAP really sincerely cared about the poor russian working classes and that's why they wanted to remove all the, in their eyes, evil jews from Russia.

I thought PJ had grown up from the days where he said stuff like "1000 Afghans aren't worth the life of a single American" but I'm not so sure anymore...

I don't think anybody here would seriously let such an explanation count if I said that the poor 9/11 bombers were really just trying to keep the imperialist Americans out of their precious Heimat to keep their limit resources for their precious Arabian national Heimat which they only want to keep free of foreigners who come to take their stuff (limited resources). From an Arabian POV I could also add the whole "if only you had lived with them, they drink alcohol, smash glass on the floor and pee onto the floor and the seats in the toilet stalls, those barbarians" - thing to make it perfect. Actually that's why I'm not fond of student parties anymore and I'm not even Arabian.

Also Heimat is a German word, of course it's a superior word.

PJ longs for the days glorified by military men in snazzy dress.

[Pannonian]

Anyone who wishes to excuse the deeds of the Nazis and imperial Japanese are likely to be severely wrongheaded in their worldview. I don't know about the Japanese, but most modern Germans don't fit into this category. There are quite a lot of Third Reich worshippers in other countries though.

[Fragony]

PJ longs for the days glorified by military men in snazzy dress.

What a nasty thing to say or even suggest. I reported this post, just so you know I did that I post it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think that EasternSpartakus/Aram of Mada is upset because we tend to focus only on Nazi atrocities, and not those by the Soviets and even the Allies. The sufferings of ethnic Germans during, and more especially after the war, tends to be ignored.

To be fair, if you count forced deportation as genocide, then the experiences of ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe after the war do match the Holocaust in terms of scale, and yet remain pretty much unknown in popular knowledge.

12-14 million ethnic Germans were forced to flee/were expelled from these places, and most estimates I see put the death toll at a very sizeable 2 million. If you consider that some estimates put the figure of ethnic Germans remaining in Eastern Europe are as low as 700,000, this would also make it a far more successful genocide than the Holocaust. The Allies forced 1.9 million Sudeten Germans to move to West Germany; the Soviets forced another 1 million to their own sphere - this out of a population of 3-3.5 million. The death rate of ethnic Germans that were forced from the Soviet occupation zone into work camps in Asia was up to 30%; at one point there were 1.5 million ethnic Germans forced into these camps.

I have no time for Nazi ideology and I don't mean to use this to apologize for them (it was, after all, largely stuff that happened after the war), but this does seem to be something of a hidden genocide.

btw, all figures are from here.

[Pannonian]

I think that EasternSpartakus/Aram of Mada is upset because we tend to focus only on Nazi atrocities, and not those by the Soviets and even the Allies. The sufferings of ethnic Germans during, and more especially after the war, tends to be ignored.

To be fair, if you count forced deportation as genocide, then the experiences of ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe after the war do match the Holocaust in terms of scale, and yet remain pretty much unknown in popular knowledge.

12-14 million ethnic Germans were forced to flee/were expelled from these places, and most estimates I see put the death toll at a very sizeable 2 million. If you consider that some estimates put the figure of ethnic Germans remaining in Eastern Europe are as low as 700,000, this would also make it a far more successful genocide than the Holocaust. The Allies forced 1.9 million Sudeten Germans to move to West Germany; the Soviets forced another 1 million to their own sphere - this out of a population of 3-3.5 million. The death rate of ethnic Germans that were forced from the Soviet occupation zone into work camps in Asia was up to 30%; at one point there were 1.5 million ethnic Germans forced into these camps.

I have no time for Nazi ideology and I don't mean to use this to apologize for them (it was, after all, largely stuff that happened after the war), but this does seem to be something of a hidden genocide.

btw, all figures are from here.

There was a poster at TWC who was a descendant of one of these Germans who fled the Soviet advance and lost all they had owned for centuries. He had little time for those who equated this exodus with the deeds of the Nazis, saying that, with all that they'd done, Germany deserved to lose all they did and more. His older family members, who belonged to a generation who still remembered the days before the war, held the same view.

[Rhyfelwyr]

There was a poster at TWC who was a descendant of one of these Germans who fled the Soviet advance and lost all they had owned for centuries. He had little time for those who equated this exodus with the deeds of the Nazis, saying that, with all that they'd done, Germany deserved to lose all they did and more. His older family members, who belonged to a generation who still remembered the days before the war, held the same view.

That is interesting, although I still cannot accept the notion that ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe should be held accountable for the actions of the German state. I'm guessing this TWC poster's family were also fortunate enough to end up on the Allied side and not in the Soviet work camps.

[Pannonian]

That is interesting, although I still cannot accept the notion that ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe should be held accountable for the actions of the German state. I'm guessing this TWC poster's family were also fortunate enough to end up on the Allied side and not in the Soviet work camps.

I don't see how we on the Allied side can be faulted for what the Soviets did, far away from where we could affect anything. Morality is not an absolute position where one is either binarily on or off, but a matter of how much we can humanly do. To excuse the Nazis and imperial Japanese by equating them to the colonial British and French or the western Allies is something one consciously does and chooses to do; there is no necessity to do so but for one's choice to make that comparison in order to lighten the load of these villains. To do as much as we could in WWII was morality as far as we could extend it; to expect more is to expect more than was humanly possible, and to dismiss what we did because we didn't do more is to excuse the Axis again because we weren't morally absolutely perfect. As cited, this is backed up by someone who could have held a grudge, but who did not, because they considered their own moral position in the light of history and humanity. While those who did those deeds would have a hell of a time making up for them, their deeds do not reflect on their descendant, who accepted the weight of history without seeking to avoid it. AFAIK, most Germans are like this, and so I don't include them in the category of Third Reich sympathisers and apologists.

[Fragony]

The Soviets? The Polish did it, aftermath of WW2 was ugly. The Germans that were driven out and mostly killed didn't have any blood on their hands they were just citizens.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Soviets? The Polish did it, aftermath of WW2 was ugly. The Germans that were driven out and mostly killed didn't have any blood on their hands they were just citizens.

While objectively true, Frags, history is a litany of ordinary folk trying to get through their lives -- who nevertheless take it on the chin for the political action of others. After the 5+ year gore-fest that was WW2 in Europe, I suspect that forgiveness was pretty thin on the ground.

We had a President once who, in the waning days of a major war, advocated "Malice toward none and charity for all," as the attitude to be taken following the conflict. Someone -- a sympathizer of the losing faction -- put a bullet through his head as a riposte. Forgiveness is not always easy.

[Empire*Of*Media]

People, I really have expectance of u too see my Posts and replies, even if is unpleasant for u, we r in this dam ned political topics to discuss, or we would all play Rome2!! so when u want to discuss, in discussion even goes to contention, and its natural we r not expect to kiss each other at the end!! so if u have something in mind tell us and dont ignore my or anyones pos that is against your favors & believes! i will try to be as polite and reasonable as it should be! Thank u !

[QUOTE=Brenus;2053553003]“i say ok it maybe be truth but have u seen it?! have u researched it without any media influenced or ignorancy or anything one & narrow minded?! NO!
So, Yes, I have seen it, at least what the Nazi didn’t have time to destroy (plus family/village history) and not only once (in France, Austria, Serbia, Croatia).
Really?! for god's sake your too much old!! u were in Bosnia In Iraqi Kurdistan in Coratia in almost everywhere!!!!and u go savin them!! i think your prophet!! why u dont identify yourself we worship u!!!! O HOLY BRENUS PLZ COME TO IRAN & Afghanistan * Uganda &... TOO!! or maybe your there we dont know!!!!
And yes, I studied it. The best in all the Holocausts Deniers is the fact that the Courageous Nazis never denied it (only their heirs), they just told it was not them, only the dead Nazis were responsible for it. We have more documents, plans and buildings left by the Nazis than we will ever need to know the truth.
i heard say that Napoleon said in Spain that butcher every Gypsies & Catalan and even Aliens because he just hated their shape of Eyes!
Many quotes can be made easily like many quotes Jews made for Xerxes and Hamann & Garbling & manipulated the history and and Pourim!! (dont mean any any hate toward Jews, only an example, i didnt have any in mind NOW because if i say more u will deny them too!)

“we shouldnt stick to the details, but u say burning the villages! but i say it was not what u r told to see then believe! because the villages that they set to fire supported many many rebels” I could laugh if it was not so sad: the 2 only partisans in my village was my Grand-father and my grandmother, and they even were not there when the SS came… YOUR problem is YOU believe that it is history when it is something still very alive in our villages…
The other thing YOU are missing is History is NOT written by Victors, but by survivors and following post-war political Agenda. Reason why people is the West still believe in “USSR was saved by Western Weapons” and believed that the Western Allies had better Armies that the Soviets.

1. its war, supporting the rebels as they call it, its penalty is death in times of War for the aggressor/defender, the thing that your Beloved USA did in Exterminating The Children & Women and setting fire to their Homes & Farms in VIETNAM!! why u dont /like want/dare to talk about this?!?! because your Imperialistic Favors will be In Danger!!
2.“USSR was saved by Western Weapons” ok! and so we can say "WESTERN Governments were saved by Soviet Lives" if the Soviets did not resist, Nazism would take the world because Westerns were no match against German Military Science & Technology and Nazi Germany's People's & Army's Zeal & Faith!!

“u r told to believe this by mass producing Documentaries & Movies” Nope. I don’t believe. I know, but studies and proofs left by the Murderers. If I see a Medieval Castle, I don’t believe in a Castle, I see it. YOUR problem is YOU believe in what you want to believe, whatever proofs and evidences of the crimes are. We have the plans, the buildings, the perpetrators, the names of the victims (not all, I grant you this), but you still deny (de facto, you do) because that what you want to do.

Then, well i told about the Nuremberg trial and the SOAP PROOF!! if thats what u call it proof! those proofs remind me showing the proofs of North Korea about the West to their people!!
as long as 60% of the so called judges were jew or zionis jews, and they accepted the accusations only by words of some not by real documents and proofs i dont say intelligent liars and truth creators!


“why not speak & discuss about this like what they claim in a FREE & DEMOCRATIC world?” Because the Holocaust Deniers, as the names told you, don’t want to discuss it. They deny it. As you do. I can ask you where are the Dutch Jews, the Hungarian Jews, the Roms Community of Darda (Croatia), you will still not answer the questions and deny it happened. Where are the Jews deported by the French of Pétain and hand-over to the Nazi? The French Railways that carried them under the order of the German Authorities have been PAID for it, so we know with this kind of documents (and in all Europe we have thousands of this kind of documents, in all Countries) we know that Jews were deported to Poland. So where are they? Why they didn’t came back… Answer: They are all dead when the Russian/USSR, English, French and US troops liberated the Camps.
I interviewed one of the foot Soldier belonging to the 2 DB (2nd Armoured Division) who did just that, and to see his eyes, and his skin when telling me that…

1.They dont deny they want to reconsider the zionists exaggerating about holocust! why anyone wants to discuss about Zionis Jews abd their hatred toward the world, or those want to only see the holocaust matter LOGICAL not like 300The movie, should be seen as a wild racist beast?! we suppose you and your masters are true! why They dont understand these people why they dont bring the proofs they doubt, but instead they penalized them, lockup them, beat them by hiring thugs, and.... so that is called FEAR fear from uncovering truth & revealing their deception.
2. your right there is no jews in those regions because they were vanished by the nazis and many myths created for them!
from the Jewish mass killings at medieval age by catholics in time of plagues that reduced jewish population in all europe so significantly, can u tell me whats this 7 million jews living in Israel and over 12 million in USA and over almost 5 million in across Europe?!?! were they duplicated or mass produced?!!! why no one even thinks if they killed 6.5 million Jews in Holocaust in 1935-45, so the population of jews should be something below than 1-2 million in world!
hau! nasty & horrible great deception!

“why the world doesnt focus on Armenian Genocid or Kurdish Genocide or Bulgarian genocide or German Genocide & .... why the so called genocide must be focused on a peoples that have much 80% of world economy & Money?!” The Armenian Genocide is very well documented and discussed. Some said it is not the right qualification, figures are not discussed… What Kurdish genocide, or Bulgarian or German? Never exist only in the ones who want to deny the real Holocaust.
As your last sentence, it is just pure and plain Anti-Semitism. If you just look at the pictures of the deported, you will easily see how rich where the Polish Jews, or Russians, or Hungarians…

No Kurdish & German Genocide?!!? i...i really dont know what to say!! are u Zionist?! because we have more than 400.000 Kurdish jews and they dont hate Kurds! and German jews that dont hate Germans! Kurdish genocide NOT EXISTED only because world has not much information about them because they didnt have zionist Jews Super Extreme Economy & Wealth to Spread propogandas?! what a nasty reason for denying! yet your work is to deny!
yet i will just add yes not much information about Kurdish (and Assyrian Christians) Genocide because we are not in Europe like Bosnia, because they got freedom & saved because almost some 200.000 of them were killed by Serbs,then the world surprised because it was in europe! but the Kurds are giving martyrs over 5 million from the past 90 years! even the Masud Barzani President of Autonomous Kurdistan's Region Government of iraq said, from my 128 relatives and family, only one was survived! and they were my cousin and my CAT!! All of them died by Ba'sis and SADDAMists!! yet this is a little-no a bit a micron for iraqi kurdistan not Kurds in Turkey even were denied their existence until past 3 years! and their language was banned that speaking it even with your own family, its penalty was jailing over 10 years or even execute!! and i didnt say about Kurds Genocide in Syria & Iran!!
The German Genocide?!! ufffffff really readers havnt been tired?! because im ready to name the German Soft Genocide by USSR & Western Allies!

your very opportunist and u only dare to discuss about the matters u CAN deny and Attack it!! because i wrote too many and try to make them subversioned & destruct it too force and impose your believes that they told u to have it! IF NOT! why when i compared your hate toward Nazism, and matched to Imperialism that should be exactly like this, and when i told about Himler's Crimes compared & Matched to Winston Churchil, Stalin, Eisenhowers & Roosevelts Families &.. and crimes of any other western Imperialist governments that are one, and their colonization & extermination of poor people, u DIDNT BOLD THOSE AND ACCEPT OR DENY THEM!! because u know u CANT talk about them!!
i will not continue u know why?! your job is to deny and insult & mock & hate those not in ur favor! first i thought u dont want to know! know i know u r Servant or at least a loyal zealot advocate of your lovely Imperialists with too much fanaticism!!

I think that EasternSpartakus/Aram of Mada is upset because we tend to focus only on Nazi atrocities, and not those by the Soviets and even the Allies. The sufferings of ethnic Germans during, and more especially after the war, tends to be ignored.

To be fair, if you count forced deportation as genocide, then the experiences of ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe after the war do match the Holocaust in terms of scale, and yet remain pretty much unknown in popular knowledge.

12-14 million ethnic Germans were forced to flee/were expelled from these places, and most estimates I see put the death toll at a very sizeable 2 million. If you consider that some estimates put the figure of ethnic Germans remaining in Eastern Europe are as low as 700,000, this would also make it a far more successful genocide than the Holocaust. The Allies forced 1.9 million Sudeten Germans to move to West Germany; the Soviets forced another 1 million to their own sphere - this out of a population of 3-3.5 million. The death rate of ethnic Germans that were forced from the Soviet occupation zone into work camps in Asia was up to 30%; at one point there were 1.5 million ethnic Germans forced into these camps.

I have no time for Nazi ideology and I don't mean to use this to apologize for them (it was, after all, largely stuff that happened after the war), but this does seem to be something of a hidden genocide.

btw, all figures are from here.

Exactly Friend! oh i see u wise & understandable too! i dont care they call me Anti-Semitism if they think like this maybe they r right in their believes!

but what i say u see one u must see another or it will be like u r told to believe like this! or it comes from fanaticism or from ignorancy!
we say HEY THEY KILLED JEWS LETS KILL NAZI advocates and destroy the Nazi Graves like Rudolf Hess, but we dont see for example the German Genocide and tortures by the West & East Allies Imperialists or Rwanda Extermination by US or Colonization of Poor India & Africa by UK, The Nuking Hiroshima and Ngazaki, and..... yes, those GOOD Democrat good faced peoples and good Angel the saviors of humanity like what HollyWood dictate and make that empathy to us , that r in power now and continuing and spreading their Imperialistic Favors and matter in the world!

(for the first listeners Better watch the ANONYMOUS in youtube or search anywhere that have infiltrated the most secrets of USA & Britains Secrets and r revealing their deceptions and crimes, those that led the WALL STREET MOVEMENT that was completely suppressed by USA government and no one criticized and condemned their suppression and standing against freedom seekers in the USA himself, u know they know what to do to dont let people see their ugly and evilry face!!)

i just say dont be one minded or narrow minded!

open your mind and remove your limitation of mind that is because of geographical, political, enviremental & or any other limitation

[a completely inoffensive name]

If the Greek public wishes to elect fascists let them. If the fascists do what fascists do and dismantle democracy, then as long as they did it after being elected by a large majority of the country, it will have been legal (under Greek law) and under the consent of the people.

If they wish to subvert democracy through extra-legal processes, then crush them by any means.

If they wish to follow in Hitlers footsteps after gaining power, then I have no problem with American Imperialism being on the right side of history again.

If I was Greek, I would be fighting the Golden Dawn tooth and nail, but at this point the Greeks are only driven further into their arms when the "outsiders" and "immigrants" interfere.

[Strike For The South]

It's at this point in the thread where I gleefully point out that fact PJ is an immigrant

so happy

[Seamus Fermanagh]

East'Spart':

Brenus is, I assure you, NOT a USA apologist. I don't think he has any real axe to grind against the USA, but he isn't a starry-eyed fan either.

I am far more of an US-Exceptionalist type than he.

[Brenus]

Ahh, the good old totalitarian methods.

First pretends to be funny but wage a smear campaign. Our Kurdish Friend uses the methods in vogue during the Nazism and Stalinism. First mock your opponent but don’t forget to tell he is lying: Done in the first answer.
Second, don’t answer just change subject, divert the attention. Do not hesitate to push too far: Done in the second answer.
Third, return the argument in (apparently, in this case) you favour focussing in the bad action of your opponent. The aim is to finish what you did in the second step: diversion. Again, don’t hesitate to push, opposing term are good: Done in the third answer.
Do NOT hesitate to falsify and distort a text for your opponent: Done in the fourth answer.
Affirm unproved assertions, lie in abundance. Don’t forget to NOT answer the question. Truth and Reality are NOT important. Done in the fifth answer
Underline your opponent or his allies faults, and don’t answer the question. Don’t forget to insult or humiliate (in a funny way in public) your opponent. Ask questions without even trying to find the answer. Remember the answer is not what you seek: Done in the sixth answer.
Make affirmations: Do not hesitate, bigger they are, better they are. Who care of facts when only YOU know the truth…
Try to keep the Moral High Ground as bonus: The last sentence was GREAT...

I think you qualified. Congratulation.

However: You still didn’t tell me where the Jews from Budapest, the Roms from Darda, etc are.
For your problem of statistic, in the Middle-Ages the French Population was around 5 million. Despite all what you describe (and 1,600,000 young men killed on the battlefields (this ONLY for the WW1) they are now around 65,000,000.

You are a Holocaust denier. You are an anti-Semitic. You take all your “knowledge” from their sites, and you use their vocabulary and methods.
And, as my fanaticism for USA is very well known on regular readers of this site can tell, I can laugh on your non-sense rant.

In one think you are right. I will fight people like you as much as I can. As my Grand-Parents did during the war if needed. I will do it by words here. No Pasaran.

[Kralizec]

I think more specifically Panzer's point is that Muslims, like blacks, just suck and should stay away from our pristine Heimat.

I don't agree with Panzer's opinion on this, but this is unfair.

Greece is disproportionally burdened by illegal immigrants compared to most other European countries. It's not surprising Golden Dawn attracts votes. They're violent, but so are a lot of leftist groups in Greece.

Of course the arrests and prosecutions have been a long time coming. There's the risk that they'll successfully paint themselves as martyrs - but that risk is not nearly as serious as the danger of letting these thugs break the law at will.

[Montmorency]

Greece is disproportionally burdened by illegal immigrants compared to most other European countries.

But that's a completely different matter. It is not an unfair characterization.

[PanzerJaeger]

That my expression of sympathy and understanding for the Greeks enduring the uncontrolled influx of welfare immigrants resulted not only in the usual, thoughtless cries of racism, but also an entire sidebar of conjecture about what could possibly motivate me to feel that way, including suggested Nazi sympathies, shows just how detached this forum is from what is going on in Greece and many parts of Europe.

Fragony is correct; fault ultimately lies with a political/intellectual class that has succumbed to the idea that anything short of an open door policy is tantamount to racism and inhumanity. These are indeed the same people who are the most insulated from the results of such a policy. But placing blame solely at the feet of the political class removes any fault from the immigrant himself; conforming to the idealized notion of the immigrant that passes as reality among the middle and upper classes who have little day to day dealings with them.

Yes, Strike, I am a first generation immigrant to the United States, which gives me a unique perspective on the subject. My family and I came to the US to become Americans, not Germans living in America. We created a successful business and through it contributed to our community in the way of created jobs and taxes paid and even contributed just a little bit to the GDP; we did not come to this country to take advantage of a generous welfare system. In my relatively young 26 year life, I've already paid a significant sum to the government; I've never collected a check. We have made every effort to become American and conform to the cultural norms of our new country. My parents disallowed Deutsch spoken in our home; and while it certainly was not easy to fit into the culture of the American South, I made every effort to understand America - its history, its political structure, its economy, and its culture - better than the Americans around me. We did not seek out other Germans and attempt to build a nation within a nation off the largesse of a bloated welfare system and a paralyzed host population.

Welfare immigrants are the scum of the earth. The come to take, and leave when there's nothing left. In contrast to the popular notion, they do not strengthen a nation, they drain it of its resources and destroy labor markets. We endure a similar situation in America, although certainly not on the same level as what has occurred in Europe. Mexicans come to this nation to send American dollars back to Mexico and now demand that we change our laws to accommodate their desire to be fully accepted into the welfare system. They have become so numerous that it is now infeasible to deport them; thus some form of amnesty is the only realistic option. And yet, in the depths of the recession, when our nation was on its knees, many of those mexicans simply packed up and went back home because the US was no longer a teet worth sucking. The whole situation is disgusting to those of us who went through the arduous citizenship process. Germany is a wonderful country, but the United States is my home - not my current transitory benefit check provider. I'll be here through the good times and the bad.

Any sensible immigration policy would limit entry to those who could reasonably be perceived as a providing a net benefit to the nation in question; however, the short term benefit for those proponents of socialism to import dependent votes is more than enough to ignore the long term impact such a policy will have. There is a reason that Golden Dawn receives its largest share of votes from neighborhoods that have been filled with third world immigrants living off of the government dole. It could very well be that all those Greeks are secret Nazis longing for the heady days of German occupation (), but maybe, just maybe, they are reacting rationally to the reality around them.

[Strike For The South]

I still love you

[Montmorency]

You are no better than those you denigrate, PJ - remember that.

[Fragony]

You are no better than those you denigrate, PJ - remember that.

Someone who has made every effort to be a benifit to society not better than a wellfare-tourist? Welfare tourists cost 8 billion a year here. Wellfare fraud goes on top of that but I got no exact numbers on that one, but it's a lot. And let's not even start about the rediculous overpresentation in the crime statistics.

[Montmorency]

The very first fallacy is that an immigrant - let alone a short-term immigrant - is a "welfare immigrant" and "scum of the Earth" if they don't abandon their entire history and culture and try to imitate the white residents of their locality to a T.

The second fallacy is that if an immigrant arrives to satisfy the predatory demand of employers for ever-cheaper labor, and works their butt off in poor conditions and with relatively little access to state protections or amenities, they are "welfare immigrants" and "scum of the earth" for daring to attempt to support their families with their meager income.

The third fallacy is specific to the Greek case, and it is that most of the long-term immigrants to/in Greece, whether documented or not, are "from the Third-World", and not from neighboring Southeastern European countries.

Ethnocentrism based on rational cost-benefit analysis is one thing, but a delusional ethnocentrism built upon hatred, arrogant self-importance, and misconception is a purely despicable thing.

[Fragony]

Ah sure, no such thing as wellfare tourism, it just isn't there, it's all rainbows and unicorns.