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Thread: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

  1. #61
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post


    That my expression of sympathy and understanding for the Greeks enduring the uncontrolled influx of welfare immigrants resulted not only in the usual, thoughtless cries of racism, but also an entire sidebar of conjecture about what could possibly motivate me to feel that way, including suggested Nazi sympathies, shows just how detached this forum is from what is going on in Greece and many parts of Europe.

    Fragony is correct; fault ultimately lies with a political/intellectual class that has succumbed to the idea that anything short of an open door policy is tantamount to racism and inhumanity. These are indeed the same people who are the most insulated from the results of such a policy. But placing blame solely at the feet of the political class removes any fault from the immigrant himself; conforming to the idealized notion of the immigrant that passes as reality among the middle and upper classes who have little day to day dealings with them.
    That you think open doors is actually the immigration policy in Europe shows how detached you are from actual realities on the European continent. Calling them "welfare immigrants" just supports the idea that you're racist and condescending. Your claim that our elites have no day to day dealings with thew immigrants is great, so how many dealings do you have with them? I for one live in an area with a whole lot of Turkish, Lebanese(Arabian) and Asian immigrants and I see no reason to vote far right.


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  2. #62

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    A crucial point about 'national unity':

    It is not at all important that all immigrants assimilate entirely to the majority group, or that the majority group retain socio-political advantages to ensure or prolong their primacy.

    What's important is that all the various groups become acclimated to each other and find common ground in such things as industry, language(s), popular culture, or core national tenets grounded in history and general consensus.
    For instance, isolation of ethnic enclaves, or really any sizeable territory with almost no representation from more than one ethnic or racial group, is pretty unhealthy for national unity - it cultivates resentment and parochialism.
    This is why cities -especially dense ones - are so great: myriad small-but-tight-knit communities united around an economic, political, and social core. Even the most uniform neighborhoods will never be more than a few blocks away from divergence. So rather than having situations in which a given citizen may not have seen a member of another race or ethnicity in months or years, you get such situations as:

    *A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
    *A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
    *Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
    *Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
    *Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
    *Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms

    But that's a more extreme example. It's not to say that entire populations should be redistributed throughout countries or the world to achieve maximum diversity; the point is that diversity breeds understanding, and homogeneity breeds insularity and ignorance.

    More urgently, one of the most damaging factors towards the development of national unity is the presence of pompous bigots who actively ignore, dismiss, or undermine the process of mutual integration so as to maintain their own sense of difference, and thereby superiority - and then complain about the aloofness, disengagement, or animosity of the newcomers and leverage it as reason to implement penalties or restrictions against the newcomers. It's a hideous and thoughtless cycle of hostility and resentment, and it is spearheaded by cowards who can not endure the thought of ceding even an iota of their hegemony.

    So what do we get when people like Panzerjaeger come over, take pride in abandoning all traces of their former home and heritage, predicate social success on the approbation of their highest-prestige neighbors, and deride and look down upon any immigrants that do not conform to this model of cultural sycophancy? We get the aforementioned pompous bigots reinforced in their pride of inbred homogeneity, and distrust and discontent fanned in the name of 'prosperity', 'stability', 'fairness', and - 'national unity'.

    You and your ilk are the problem PJ, not the 'dirty Mexican welfare-leeches'. Spend some time living in an area where "whites" are 1/3 of the population or less, or where the proportion of 1st/2nd generation immigrants among the population exceeds 3/4. It might surprise you, but we are doing just fine.
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  3. #63
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Come on, everybody hates Chinatown and Italian restaurants because these filthy foreigners kept their original culture.


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  4. #64

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ah sure, no such thing as wellfare tourism, it just isn't there, it's all rainbows and unicorns.
    People aren't welfare touring Greece at the moment, though, are they? Welfare tourism does exist (here), but simply not in any numbers to make a dent in the budget compared to the amounts being spent on the usual shambles, say, the JSF. It's all about scale.
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  5. #65
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That you think open doors is actually the immigration policy in Europe shows how detached you are from actual realities on the European continent. Calling them "welfare immigrants" just supports the idea that you're racist and condescending. Your claim that our elites have no day to day dealings with thew immigrants is great, so how many dealings do you have with them? I for one live in an area with a whole lot of Turkish, Lebanese(Arabian) and Asian immigrants and I see no reason to vote far right.
    Don't we all. If things go wrong I don't want to hear you didn't see it comming though. I probably dispise these Golden Dawn guys just as much as you do, but at least I am not completily blind on why they exist. In short, you are idiots, and your idiocy is making bad things possible.

  6. #66
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    People aren't welfare touring Greece at the moment, though, are they? Welfare tourism does exist (here), but simply not in any numbers to make a dent in the budget compared to the amounts being spent on the usual shambles, say, the JSF. It's all about scale.
    You kidding me. We could buy over 350 JSF and build a carrier to put them on. In a single year.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-08-2013 at 14:16.

  7. #67
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Don't we all. If things go wrong I don't want to hear you didn't see it comming though. I probably dispise these Golden Dawn guys just as much as you do, but at least I am not completily blind on why they exist. In short, you are idiots, and your idiocy is making bad things possible.
    It was idiotic to think that putting all the immigrants into segregated areas where the natives do not have to deal with them was somehow a good idea. And now we wonder why they're not properly integrated after we tried to avoid them for as long as possible. I've heard a few stories about foreign workers who wanted to integrate but weren't welcomed by any of the Germans they met. And now these same Germans complain about a lack of integration?

    You can tell me that this is normal human behavior and I cannot disagree but that doesn't mean it is not flawed to some extent given the modern requirements. Somehow corporations have far less trouble adapting to and between different cultures and they are the real drivers of progress, not the government. Most people care far more about their job than about who is in government. The truth is that the governments and peoples' minds are so far behind a globalized economy that if you want to adjust the circumstances to human nature, you have to forbid companies to do business outside their nation of origin to "fix" this. Or you have to simply work towards adjusting peoples' attitudes toward one another. In other words the Nazis might as well ruin the economy for a long time if they throw all the foreigners and their companies out of a country.

    That people only see the violent Nazi way out of this is just a result of a failure to educate people properly. And I'm not sure why entire nations and foreign policies should be adjusted to people who quite frankly have no idea. Unless you think science and knowledge are a despicable blight that prevents people from getting a good job because it makes them dumb.


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  8. #68
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    It isn't a lack of science that makes you dumb, it's not understanding human beings that makes you dumb. You can't emphatise with their situation. Dumb is perhaps the wrong word, stupid is better, as those supporting lunacy are usually not dumb. But oh so stupid

  9. #69
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    It isn't a lack of science that makes you dumb, it's not understanding human beings that makes you dumb. You can't emphatise with their situation. Dumb is perhaps the wrong word, stupid is better, as those supporting lunacy are usually not dumb. But oh so stupid
    I'm a human being and you clearly don't understand me.


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  10. #70
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I'm a human being and you clearly don't understand me.
    Sure you are a human being, but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with some cultures. Just is. Even in the west wher they have nothing to complain about, a waitor would probably be fired for bad catering if he doesn't meet their demands.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-08-2013 at 16:42.

  11. #71
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Sure you are a human being, but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with some cultures. Just is. Even in the west wher they have nothing to complain about, a waitor would probably be fired for bad catering if he doesn't meet their demands.
    There is no waiter and there are not demands.
    Yeah, but he didn't get hired and noone wanted to talk to him and that is unthinkable even in the East where they are not like the West in these things at all except where they are so you are completely wrong.


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  12. #72

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    *A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
    *A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
    *Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
    *Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
    *Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
    *Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms


    This is some of the most starry-eyed, idealistic drivel I've read on this board in a long time. Is this really what you think is going on in Greece? Let me introduce you to reality.

    ATHENS — As the Greek government struggles to save its debt-racked economy from collapse, another crisis is growing in the capital: A sharp increase in violent crime is stirring unrest among a public already demoralized by unending economic hardship.

    Once a rarity in Athens, long proclaimed one of the safest European capitals, crime has grown uglier. Knifings are no longer unusual and assault rifles have been used in armed raids on street kiosks and jewelry shops.

    According to police statistics for 2010, the most recent available, street robberies in the capital doubled compared with 2009, robberies of taxi drivers nearly quadrupled and homicides were up 50 percent. The figures are stark compared with those in other Greek cities where increases are mostly in the single digits.

    “Crime has not just increased — it has become more complex and more violent, particularly organized crime,” said Thanassis Kokkalakis, a police spokesman.

    Some offenses are broadly attributed to the growing desperation of drug addicts — thousands are on a waiting list for rehabilitation at state clinics — and a rising population of illegal immigrants, most of whom end up in Athens after crossing overland into mainland Greece from Turkey or by vessels to Greek islands.

    Much of the crime, however, is attributed to Greeks or migrants from Balkan countries like Albania and Bulgaria, who, according to the police, exploit impoverished arrivals from Africa and Asia.

    An attempted crackdown on organized crime has had limited success, provoking several shootouts. Two police officers were killed in March, and several more have been wounded.

    Illicit trade and crime have created a no-go zone, splitting the heart of Athens in half. Commercial and archaeological sites frequented by tourists are largely unaffected. But dingy streets and plazas behind Omonia Square have become a haven for the drug and sex trades and the scene of frequent armed clashes between migrant groups wrestling for control of this trade. As tolerance wears down, migrants have been singled out in a wave of brutal attacks linked to far-right groups.

    Residents and shopkeepers have had enough. Most of those who can have moved away, said Vassiliki Nikolakopoulou, 57, who heads a residents’ committee and has been robbed twice by people she perceived to be immigrants wielding knives.

    “We were warning this would happen five years ago,” she said. “Now it’s a jungle.”

    Ioanna Katseli, who manages a street kiosk near the city center, has been robbed several times by people she said were immigrants and drug addicts and said her husband, a taxi driver, had been threatened at knife-point by thieves.

    Ms. Katseli, 58, stopped wearing jewelry after the murder of a 45-year-old owner of a kiosk in February, a few blocks away, by men wielding Kalashnikov rifles. “I’m not surprised my old customers stay away,” she said, adding that her efforts to find work elsewhere had failed.

    Public anger peaked on May 10 when a 44-year-old Greek man was knifed to death on a street corner while his wife was going into labor. The assailants snatched the video camera with which the man had planned to film the birth.

    After rumors that the killers were immigrants, a 21-year-old Bangladeshi man was stabbed to death. Two Afghan citizens have since been charged with the Greek man’s murder while the Bangladeshi’s killers remain at large.

    A public demonstration protesting the Greek’s killing was hijacked by far-rightists who chased immigrants and beat them with clubs. Since then, a small crowd guards a makeshift shrine at the scene where the Greek man was stabbed, closing the road at night with a metal barrier draped in a Greek flag.

    After the stabbings, Prime Minister George Papandreou called on his ministers to act, warning that “Athens will sink if it descends into violence.”

    The city’s mayor, Giorgos Kaminis, conceded that the situation was out of control.

    “The economic crisis, combined with extreme criminality, renders the risk of the city collapsing a clear possibility,” he said, naming drug addicts and illegal immigrants as the biggest problems.

    In recent weeks, police have increased patrols and hundreds of illegal immigrants have been evacuated from squats. The authorities have created several facilities, outside Athens, for detention of immigrants facing deportation. There are plans to move drug rehabilitation clinics from the city center.

    Many migrants argue they are being punished for the wrongdoing of a few. “Most of us just want to work,” said Salim, 28, who came to Athens from Afghanistan in 2006 and manages a convenience store near Victoria Square. He declined to give his surname for fear of reprisals; his store windows have been smashed twice in two weeks.

    The police say half of all crime suspects are immigrants.

    “The security problems in the city center are largely linked to the problem of illegal immigration,” said Mr. Kokkalakis, the police spokesman. “Many migrants resort to petty crime, thefts, burglaries, prostitution and drug dealing to survive and pay off their supposed benefactors” — smugglers who bring migrants for a fee.

    Yiannis Panousis, a professor of criminology at the University of Athens, said the problem could not be attributed to immigrants or drugs. Police raids should be more focused, he said.

    “If organized crime is broken, the cover-ups will be exposed,” he said, noting that migrants resorting to crime are protected by the people who exploit them.

    The economic crisis and 16 percent official unemployment are not the cause of the increased crime, said Yiannis Panousis, a professor of criminology at the University of Athens. “You don’t start mugging because you’ve lost your job," he said, but tolerance had been eroded.

    Vassiliki Papoulia, 46, an employee at a public company near Koumoudourou Square, where dozens of migrants sleep at night, said: “I was never a racist but I’ve become one. Why can’t we send them all home?”

    Others are more understanding. Aliki Katsikari, 63, manages a restaurant in the trendy district of Psyrri and employs a Bangladeshi and a Pakistani in her kitchen. Her street has been the site of brawls between gangs of Asian and African immigrants and is a hangout for drug addicts.

    “It’s not their fault,” she said. “It’s the neglect of the state.”

    Since far-right parties made gains in local elections in November, vigilante groups have patrolled city squares.

    “An elderly citizen who sees a man on a motorbike hit an immigrant with a club may applaud the attacker,” said Mr. Panousis, the criminologist, adding that the cause was not racism, but fear.

    For Mr. Panousis, the murder on May 10 was a turning point.

    “People identified with him,” he said of the Greek man with the pregnant wife. “He wasn’t a taxi driver or a night-shift security guard. He was just a regular guy going to his car.”
    Surging crime, deteriorating property values, imported ethnic strife, ghettoization of formerly established areas, and reactionary anti-immigrant violence are just a few of the results of open door immigration. You can stick your head in the sand and sing Kumbaya all you like, but it will not change the reality of the situation.


    You and your ilk are the problem PJ, not the 'dirty Mexican welfare-leeches'. Spend some time living in an area where "whites" are 1/3 of the population or less, or where the proportion of 1st/2nd generation immigrants among the population exceeds 3/4. It might surprise you, but we are doing just fine.
    I have little interest in addressing made up anecdotes and personal attacks. The fact that you apparently have the means to spend the majority of your day in front of a computer playing games and/or writing essay length posts on a gaming forum makes it pretty clear that you are not living in the situation being discussed, so please do not imply otherwise. Enjoy your day.

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  13. #73
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    There is no waiter and there are not demands.
    Yeah, but he didn't get hired and noone wanted to talk to him and that is unthinkable even in the East where they are not like the West in these things at all except where they are so you are completely wrong.
    From my side there aren't all that much demands, but I want to be treated as I treat others. And that is where things usually go wrong. An immigrant leaves his stuff behind, a colonist takes his stuff with him.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-08-2013 at 19:46.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Descendant from an immigrant here. I do agree about working to contribute to where I live (US) I mean why not? That would be beneficial to me that the US is well off so I contribute to this nation so I can be well off too and live (stay) there. So if there was conflict between USA and China I'd support the US for the betterment of the nation and myself.


    I can speak (horribly) Chinese, why shouldn't I know how to? It doesn't harm me or anything except I can have other opportunities and useful abilities in life.

    Many people in the US would consider me Chinese but from my experience the Chinese think I'm "American".
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  15. #75
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post


    This is some of the most starry-eyed, idealistic drivel I've read on this board in a long time. Is this really what you think is going on in Greece? Let me introduce you to reality.
    Yeah, how 'bout some? How about the fact that the Golden Dawn is chock full of criminals, both their voters and their representatives? How does voting in criminals work to fix problems with crime, exactly? How about the fact that there is virtually no "welfare immigration" in Greece, as Greece doesn't have any money anyway and the immigrants targeted by the Golden Dawn are illegals who wouldn't be entitled to anything anyway?

    You're mixing concerns and issues from all over Europe and putting them all into Greece. That's not how Greece works, pipe down.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  16. #76
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    "There is a reason that Golden Dawn receives its largest share of votes from neighborhoods that have been filled with third world immigrants living off of the government dole. It could very well be that all those Greeks are secret Nazis longing for the heady days of German occupation (), but maybe, just maybe, they are reacting rationally to the reality around them."

    Golden Dawn's official magazine identifies themselves as Nazis so I think that part is not part of the argument. The why and therefore the solution is more interesting.

    What I've observed in Sydney is that new immigrants will tend to bunch together around favourite supermarkets, delis, barbers, restaurants. Essentially new ones will latch on to something familiar and the majority of the time it will be access to food. So unless PJ your family gave up all German food it isn't really any different to other immigrant families.

    The smaller the community and the longer it has been in an area the more likely it will have take on English as the main language.

    As for another reason they chose to live. It is generally where they can afford so I see a lot of new immigrants living in the poorer parts of Sydney were the locals had a lower socio economic standing then general. Perhaps in Greece it is the same and the areas immigrants are moving into already had a worse reputation then the norm.

    I do not believe that a pile of money forms a moral high ground.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 10-08-2013 at 22:21.
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  17. #77
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    From my side there aren't all that much demands, but I want to be treated as I treat others. And that is where things usually go wrong. An immigrant leaves his stuff behind, a colonist takes his stuff with him.
    I don't want others to treat me the way you treat others, I want them to treat me the way I treat my uncle. And that's exactly where things go wrong because noone can know how I treat my uncle. An immigrant comes to get a better life, a colonist comes to take someone else's good life and country.


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  18. #78
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    As for another reason they chose to live. It is generally where they can afford so I see a lot of new immigrants living in the poorer parts of Sydney were the locals had a lower socio economic standing then general. Perhaps in Greece it is the same and the areas immigrants are moving into already had a worse reputation then the norm.
    Living expenses are our prime expense. It trumps everything else and takes a huge chunk out of your income. Immigrants, and every single other person, bases their choice of living mainly on what can be afforded. It's not an influx of immigrants causing a drop in property values, it's always a low property value causing an influx of immigrants. The common bitching by people claiming their house devalued is always caused by those people either forgetting how it used to be or simply cannot accept that they used to be or are poor themselves.

    And National Socialism and other totalitarian and undemocratic forces have always had an appeal to a large segment of the poor. It's no surprise that the greek poor turn to the same. Also worth considering is that Greece is a very recent democracy, and the old dictator still has an appeal. In addition to that, their war of independence, resulting in an absolute monarchy, is utterly romanticized. I had a look through the War of Independence unit of a greek international school last week, and it would've put Soviet education on ww2 to shame. And that was an international IB school, I shudder to think how they're portrayed in public schools.

    Finally, I would like to see some actual stats on Golden Dawn voting. The trend for the rest of Europe is the complete opposite - the more immigrants there are in an area, the more left-wing the native population will be, with right-wing parties having their base in rural hillbillyland. (and if you ask any marxist why he went to the left, I can almost guarantee it was because of anti-racism)
    Last edited by HoreTore; 10-08-2013 at 22:55.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  19. #79
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post


    This is some of the most starry-eyed, idealistic drivel I've read on this board in a long time. Is this really what you think is going on in Greece? Let me introduce you to reality.
    I thought it was pretty obvious that Montmorency was describing everyday life in just about any cosmopolitan city in the US, those were not made up anecdotes. This may not be the situation in Greece, but earlier on you criticized Mexican immigrants to the US so his points are relevant.

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  20. #80
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    That my expression of sympathy and ...just maybe, they are reacting rationally to the reality around them.
    This was the most cogently expressed version of your general argument on this class of issues that I have seen you post.


    Husar

    I didn't interpret "welfare immigrant" as an inherently racist epithet. I thought he was trying to avoid that overtone to clarify his argument. I understand your point as well, since all of the immigrant groups considered "problematic" for Greece and the USA are melanin advantaged, but I read it as him attempting to NOT bring that into the discussion and to frame it more neutrally in terms of ethical choice when facing economic hardship.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 10-09-2013 at 03:52.
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  21. #81
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Living expenses are our prime expense. It trumps everything else and takes a huge chunk out of your income. Immigrants, and every single other person, bases their choice of living mainly on what can be afforded. It's not an influx of immigrants causing a drop in property values, it's always a low property value causing an influx of immigrants. The common bitching by people claiming their house devalued is always caused by those people either forgetting how it used to be or simply cannot accept that they used to be or are poor themselves.

    And National Socialism and other totalitarian and undemocratic forces have always had an appeal to a large segment of the poor. It's no surprise that the greek poor turn to the same. Also worth considering is that Greece is a very recent democracy, and the old dictator still has an appeal. In addition to that, their war of independence, resulting in an absolute monarchy, is utterly romanticized. I had a look through the War of Independence unit of a greek international school last week, and it would've put Soviet education on ww2 to shame. And that was an international IB school, I shudder to think how they're portrayed in public schools.

    Finally, I would like to see some actual stats on Golden Dawn voting. The trend for the rest of Europe is the complete opposite - the more immigrants there are in an area, the more left-wing the native population will be, with right-wing parties having their base in rural hillbillyland. (and if you ask any marxist why he went to the left, I can almost guarantee it was because of anti-racism)
    I too was perplexed here. PJ seemed to suggest that the GD groups greatest support was among poor immigrant enclaves. That's counter intuitive. Unless, of course, the whole line was sarcasm in which case I missed it.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  22. #82

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    How about the fact that there is virtually no "welfare immigration" in Greece, as Greece doesn't have any money anyway and the immigrants targeted by the Golden Dawn are illegals who wouldn't be entitled to anything anyway?
    Hi HoreTore -

    Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it. First, illegal immigrants in Greece are eligible for government assistance. Of course, those familiar with the situation understand that these locusts are simply using Greece as a gateway to Western Europe. That is why they continue to come despite the country's dire situation. The could care less about Greece or the strain they are putting on its citizens; it's just a cheap hostel to them.

    This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants romanticized in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

    Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pap
    I do not believe that a pile of money forms a moral high ground.
    I'm not sure you could stuff another word in my mouth in this thread if you tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    I too was perplexed here. PJ seemed to suggest that the GD groups greatest support was among poor immigrant enclaves. That's counter intuitive. Unless, of course, the whole line was sarcasm in which case I missed it.
    Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 10-09-2013 at 06:34.

  23. #83
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    *A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
    *A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
    *Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
    *Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
    *Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
    *Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms
    Did you just finish watching Crash?

    I find myself agreeing with PJ

    Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.
    It's like this everywhere though.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 10-09-2013 at 05:08.
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  24. #84

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerjaeger
    Surging crime, deteriorating property values, imported ethnic strife, ghettoization of formerly established areas, and reactionary anti-immigrant violence are just a few of the results of open door immigration. You can stick your head in the sand and sing Kumbaya all you like, but it will not change the reality of the situation.
    If you would read your own article, and other sources on the Greek situation, you would see that the problems come mostly from the native Greeks and immigrants from their neighboring Balkan states. Immigrants from Asia are usually illegal immigrants, and/or are merely using Greece as a transit point into Western Europe. So stow your baseless crud about "3rd-World" immigrants overrunning Greece to live off welfare. I mean, who would even go to Greece specifically for welfare tourism? They'd be better off wherever they started.

    Separate from the matter of immigration into Western Europe, it's pretty clear that Asian migrants in Greece are not an undue burden other than in the sense that the whole country is an economic shambles.

    Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it. First, illegal immigrants in Greece are eligible for government assistance. Of course, those familiar with the situation understand that these locusts are simply using Greece as a gateway to Western Europe. That is why they continue to come despite the country's dire situation. The could care less about Greece or the strain they are putting on its citizens; it's just a cheap hostel to them.

    This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants glorified in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

    Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.
    So you blame migrants - for being migrants? Seriously?

    They are not "bringing" crime with them, they are merely amplifying the existing situation. Even if there were no Asian migrants in Greece whatsoever, violent crime and ethnic conflict would still be sky-high in Greece; I'm sure the Golden Dawn would be placing proportionally much more blame on Albanians in Greece.

    Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.
    And it doesn't seem to you to be a result of the general Depression in Greece? Of course when the economy is collapsing people look for scapegoats - that doesn't mean the immigrants are somehow destroying communities by their villainous natures. In this state of affairs, even native Greeks moving from one neighborhood to another would create massive frictions - as it does.

    It's amazing how you affirm a narrative so oafish in its conception, that people seeking job opportunities are somehow villains who by their very presence rightfully invite retribution from 'put-upon' natives, that they are responsible for increased crime when the increased crime is mostly perpetrated by natives against them...

    Here's what a genuinely-rational position with respect to Greece might look like: Greece is still in the middle of an ongoing economic catastrophe, and accordingly living standards and social cohesion have declined, while crime has spiked. Given this situation, migrants moving through Greece to other parts of the EU are further straining the state's limited resources, and contributing to rising xenophobia and violence. In addition to potentially being undesirable in Western Europe for their being undocumented, Asian migrants in Greece are not currently contributing much to the tottering economy not least due to lack of opportunities and labor demand, and furthermore are potentially reducing their overall long-term economic prospects and increasing their risk of suffering interpersonal violence by residing in Greece for any period of time. For the duration of the crisis at least, Greece should set a moratorium on all documented visits to or stays in Greece longer than, say, a month, while raising the priority of border security in order to reduce the number of undocumented visitors, migrants, and immigrants, to which end the EU should provide logistical support. All existing migrants who wish to move on from Greece should be expedited on their journey; those who intend to become fully-naturalized citizens and live permanently in Greece should be shielded from local resentment and helped to integrate into the Greek community.

    I have little interest in addressing made up anecdotes and personal attacks. The fact that you apparently have the means to spend the majority of your day in front of a computer playing games and/or writing essay length posts on a gaming forum makes it pretty clear that you are not living in the situation being discussed, so please do not imply otherwise.
    Quite ironic.

    I live in Queens County, buddy - get some perspective.
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  25. #85
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    'They are not "bringing" crime with them, they are merely amplifying the existing situation.'

    What is the existing situation in the Netherlands than?

    Majority of the prison-population wasn't born here, the good part of the rest was born here but have an immigrant background.

  26. #86

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    You have fewer than 15,000 prisoners, I believe.

    And what does that have to do with Greece?
    Vitiate Man.

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  27. #87
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You have fewer than 15,000 prisoners, I believe.

    And what does that have to do with Greece?
    It has to do with amplying the situation. What situation is being amplified. Fact:immigrants bring crime.

    The absolute majority of Maroccan youth has a criminal record, so how about that then.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    You've had about 50K Moroccan immigrants in the past 15 years, so I doubt it.
    Vitiate Man.

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  29. #89
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You've had about 50K Moroccan immigrants in the past 15 years, so I doubt it.
    They get children no? But says something n'est pas. It's the same in Belgium, France, Sweden, etc. You can doubt it all you want. Doesn't change the facts.

  30. #90
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants romanticized in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

    Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.
    You could've been more clear about what kind of people you're talking about, basically only the illegal immigrants who are also up to no good.
    It's still delusional to think that Europeans are somehow in favor of them or okay with them. Police here tell us openly that there are roaming bands of criminals from Eastern Europe that break into peoples' apartements and they are being hunted and prosecuted and I haven't heard a single lefty say that they should be left alone. So what's all this about then? I don't go around telling people how Republicans love Mexican drug cartels because they help them play war and shoot their guns or something equally silly.

    As for immigration issues, that goes both ways since xenophobic natives make that really hard for the immigrants if they shut them out of "normal" life in a country as it often happens.
    Last edited by Husar; 10-09-2013 at 09:48.


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