Order of battle question

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Thanks for an informative post, Ludens.

I wonder, however, if a phalanx (Macedonian or Greek) would need to have veteran troops in the front rank too, rather the greenest rookies at the front. Because the front rank is the rank that needs to step off when the phalanx advances (any hesitation in the front rank will disrupt the entire phalanx) - and also, the front rank is the one that needs to dress its line correctly, as all the following files base their spacing off the position of the man in front of them.

I would put veteran soldiers in the front 1 or 2 ranks, then the new recruits, then the rest of the men in ranks of increasing experience, with the oldest and steadiest men (the ones least likely to flee) as a file-closer in the rearmost rank.

[Ca Putt]

The only thing I remember reading was from tyrtaios. He "ordered" the Young Spartiates to man the first line. This however does not help all that much as:

we don't know if they actually did, because he's not the commander.
What applies to sparta may be horribly wrong for other greek cities or even the Successors.
Young does not necessarily mean "recruits" considering the spartan training, so this probably is not a direct link to the Roman Maniple system.

It does however show that the first line was most presigious.

[Ludens]

I wonder, however, if a phalanx (Macedonian or Greek) would need to have veteran troops in the front rank too, rather the greenest rookies at the front. Because the front rank is the rank that needs to step off when the phalanx advances (any hesitation in the front rank will disrupt the entire phalanx) - and also, the front rank is the one that needs to dress its line correctly, as all the following files base their spacing off the position of the man in front of them.

The Macedonians apparently disagreed. Presumably, they drilled their recruits sufficiently for it not to be an issue.

The only thing I remember reading was from tyrtaios. He "ordered" the Young Spartiates to man the first line. This however does not help all that much as:

True. Also, Tyrtaeus lived several centuries prior to EB's time-frame - and we really shouldn't assume that Spartan culture and warfare remained unchanged in the interval.

It does however show that the first line was most presigious.

Could you explain this? I can think of several reasons for him to want to put the young first.

[kdrakak]

It all depends on the circumstances. Certainly in EB battles, but real battles as well. Where you place what unit and why is subject both to standard practice, but also particular plans. Defending a high ground, attacking broken terrain, hunting for the general, fighting superior forces (in numbers) playing it safe against a devastating cavalry charge or avoiding a grinding melee (and all the reverse of that). Green troops or veterans, elite or militia.... use appropriately.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

The Macedonians apparently disagreed. Presumably, they drilled their recruits sufficiently for it not to be an issue.

Perhaps, although dressing the line and keeping formation under (arrow) fire doesn't sound like an easy thing for inexperienced phalangites to do. It would scare the hell out of me!

[Ludens]

Perhaps, although dressing the line and keeping formation under (arrow) fire doesn't sound like an easy thing for inexperienced phalangites to do.

Certainly. But that's what drill is for: to repeat the motions until it becomes an automatism, so that the soldiers can carry them out even when they're not thinking straight.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Certainly. But that's what drill is for: to repeat the motions until it becomes an automatism, so that the soldiers can carry them out even when they're not thinking straight.

I see... so, the less experienced the soldier, the less likely they are to think straight - and therefore the more likely they are to follow the drill? ;)

[Ludens]

I see... so, the less experienced the soldier, the less likely they are to think straight - and therefore the more likely they are to follow the drill? ;)

For the record: it's all speculation on my part. We really know very little about the "mechanics" of close-combat during this age. (Much has been written about the famous "hoplite push", but the evidence for actual pushing is far slimmer than some of its proponents realize. In any case, it's not relevant for phalangites or legionaries.)