Gypsies purchased a 5 year old to exploit as a dancing attraction

[HoreTore]

The very best that can be said is that this is the Roma acting as though they are outside the law, and then using the "adopted" child to make money. Maybe they do that with their own children and think that's ok.

I don't care - the child is better off where she is than where she was.

So we should take all Roma children living away from their parents, eh? Sounds like a brilliant plan, if only we hadn't done that already and ended up with a buttload of abuse....

Or should we only take the good-looking blondes away?

[Kralizec]

Legal parents (and guardians) have their rights when we're talking about their kids.

Crucial point is that these two people are neither parents or guardians in the legal sense. The decision of what to do with the child can be based entirely on what's best for her, without worrying about what the two "adoptive parents" think.

And yes, the girl is better off away from these two. For one thing, good parents usually don't violate the law so boldly.

[HoreTore]

Legal parents (and guardians) have their rights when we're talking about their kids.

Yup, and it was the legal parent who decided that the child would be better off with them.

I really don't see much of a problem here, apart from a technical issue.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So we should take all Roma children living away from their parents, eh? Sounds like a brilliant plan, if only we hadn't done that already and ended up with a buttload of abuse....

Or should we only take the good-looking blondes away?

This child was abandoned by her mother.

The other pale girl could even be her twin - I'd bet she was sold for money, because her parents are living in a slum.

I'm ok with Travellers, if they want to look down on "Country" people, marry within their own tribes... Fine. However, they need to abide by the same laws as the rest of us. Doubtless this women didn't want to put the girl up for adoption because she was more likely to be picked up by a non-Roma couple, so she sold her daughter to a pair of Roma who, frankly, don't even appear to be able to look after themselves.

That's abuse at a fundamental level - the child needs to be taken into care, sent to school.

[HoreTore]

This child was abandoned by her mother.

The other pale girl could even be her twin - I'd bet she was sold for money, because her parents are living in a slum.

I'm ok with Travellers, if they want to look down on "Country" people, marry within their own tribes... Fine. However, they need to abide by the same laws as the rest of us. Doubtless this women didn't want to put the girl up for adoption because she was more likely to be picked up by a non-Roma couple, so she sold her daughter to a pair of Roma who, frankly, don't even appear to be able to look after themselves.

That's abuse at a fundamental level - the child needs to be taken into care, sent to school.

Where, exactly, do you get the "money changed hands"-thing from? Anything besides prejudice?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yup, and it was the legal parent who decided that the child would be better off with them.

I really don't see much of a problem here, apart from a technical issue.

What about the begging and belly dancing?

Where, exactly, do you get the "money changed hands"-thing from? Anything besides prejudice?

the fact that these are the kind of Roma who make money by getting their children to beg?

They used the girl as a commodity, and selling children in tribal cultures (or medieval ones) is more common than simply giving them away. The passing of the child from the birth parent to the adoptive one is a transaction.

[HoreTore]

What about the begging and belly dancing?

....And this would not have happen with her birth parents?

the fact that these are the kind of Roma who make money by getting their children to beg?

They used the girl as a commodity, and selling children in tribal cultures (or medieval ones) is more common than simply giving them away. The passing of the child from the birth parent to the adoptive one is a transaction.

So... You base your judgement on an individual case on the cultural traits of a group. That's called prejudice, good sir

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

....And this would not have happen with her birth parents?

Probably - but as they're the birth parents I'd be slightly more hesitant to take the child into care - but in every photo the "adoptive" parents have released, the child looks miserable.

So... You base your judgement on an individual case on the cultural traits of a group. That's called prejudice, good sir

I base it on the same kind of knowledge that tells me that impure iron will make a brittle blade - centuries of documented experience. I do not say all Roma are like this, not at all, but pretending there isn't a sub-group is like pretending there are no football hooligans.

[HoreTore]

Probably - but as they're the birth parents I'd be slightly more hesitant to take the child into care - but in every photo the "adoptive" parents have released, the child looks miserable.

Why is that? Isn't the child what matters?

And poor people usually look miserable... But I don't think you're suggesting that the state should take the children from poor families.

I base it on the same kind of knowledge that tells me that impure iron will make a brittle blade - centuries of documented experience. I do not say all Roma are like this, not at all, but pretending there isn't a sub-group is like pretending there are no football hooligans.

What's documented throughout the centuries is a wealth of hatred, fear and lies about Europe's definite pariahs.

Is it impossible that she was sold? Nope. Is it impossible that she was handed over freely because the mother believed it was in her best interest, without any fee? Nope.

I hestitate to conclude on either until we have the facts, and I stick by the innocent until proven guilty-thing.