Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

[Lemur]

Lemur, are you suggesting that insurance would have saved his life?

Last I checked, pneumonia was treatable, if you get to it quickly enough.

why are we disparaging the dead guy?

Noting that the essential supporter of a libertarian candidate died of preventable causes, uninsured, leaving his mom with $400k in medical bills, is somehow off-limits? Please.

The real-world results of libertarianism are relevant, especially when the only alternatives posited to Obamacare are (a) the status quo ante, or (b) an untested libertarian experiment in national-scale free-market healthcare provision.

ICSD, you clearly didn't read even the bit of the article I snipped. GC ... really? You're falling for this?

[Xiahou]

Last I checked, pneumonia was treatable, if you get to it quickly enough.

The guy had a pre-existing condition, a un-named"blood disorder" and died from pneumonia. Kinda sounds like HIV to me. But we're both talking about a dead man and trying to attribute motives that we neither know nor understand. We should probably stop.

Noting that the essential supporter of a libertarian candidate died of preventable causes, uninsured, leaving his mom with $400k in medical bills, is somehow off-limits? Please.

You don't inherit debt. Debts are paid from the deceased's estate. If there isn't enough value in the estate to cover it... the lender takes a haircut. The only way she could be "left with his debts" is if she was the payer in the first place. In which case, they were her debts all along.

Lastly, I'd like to address the hypocrisy accusation over people who take tax deductions they aren't in favor of or receive benefits from programs that they don't like the structure of.....

I don't have a mortgage, but you can bet I'd take the tax deduction if I did. Also, if Social Security is still paying out when I'm old enough to get benefits- I will most certainly take any benefits that I am eligible for. I don't think Social Security is sustainable as it's currently constituted, nor do I think it is a good investment. Were I to take the 12% of my income the federal government is taking from me and invest it into an IRA- I could get a much better ROI than I will get thru Social Security. That does not change the fact that the government has been taking 12% of my income for this program my entire working life. Therefore, if I get the chance to get any of that money back- I'm going to take it.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The guy had a pre-existing condition, a un-named"blood disorder" and died from pneumonia. Kinda sounds like HIV to me. But we're both talking about a dead man and trying to attribute motives that we neither know nor understand. We should probably stop.

My friend died from almost exactly the same thing. Healthy, fit as a fiddle, just bought a BMW, started job with a new firm as a financial analyst in Manhattan (at 24 years old) , 95k per year, met a girl. He began complaining of chest pain on Friday night, was dead by 1 pm the next day in a hospital in the NY metropolitan area. Fully insured, Cadillac plan, asymptomatic up to 24 hours prior. Some childhood anemia diagnosis which never gave him a problem, coupled with walking pneumonia was the cause of his total body toxicity and organ failure.

I don't mind that Lemur is vilifying and using as political cudgel a man who died from a serious form of pneumonia who happened, also,to refuse to buy into the absolutely broken medical insurance system; but I'm not sure that it is the kind of argument that someone who wasn't solely trying to rationalize his own tacky argument would continue to make. It's ok to back down sometimes - or to press on instead, like the reasonable moderate who never backs down from firmly held positions which lampoon the "right" that he is.

[Lemur]

I'm not sure that it is the kind of argument that someone who wasn't solely trying to rationalize his own tacky argument would continue to make.

This sentence is kinda beautiful. It's like a serpent eating its own tail.

I haven't brought up the subject of your high dudgeon in about a day and a half, so by all means, keep going back to that well.

As a governing philosophy, libertarianism is exactly as realistic as communism. Both suffer from good intentions and starry-eyed idealism, neither works once you scale past the family level. The similarities between the two are quite striking.

Note the mushiness and emptiness of the libertarian answers to our troubled healthcare system. Note the real-world consequences of this sort of adolescent thinking, and the hostility its acolytes express when confronted with same.

Much like communism, libertarianism can never be wrong, because it is a complete, perfect theory. It can only be misapplied or misunderstood.

Feh.

[Ironside]

Back on topic
The type of "fraud" that the late individual was guilty of was not fraud in the true sense. It was merely one man refusing to pay a bill which was unconscionably high. You wouldn't charge him with fraud, you (as the provider) would enter litigation to sue him for services rendered unpaid. If the taxpayer or insured's are kind enough to extend credit to him unsolicited, that is their own kindness/foolishness. The coldly bureaucratic arguments which suggest that people should be hauled off for insulting the thought police or daring not to purchase a product which is optional and wildly overpriced is just vacuous, hyperbolic, claptrap. All valid political beliefs for a German to hold, at any given point in history.

You sure you want the health industry to only accept payments in advance and that they always stop the treatment if things get more expensive than expected? Companies are usually neither openly kind or foolish you know.

Note the mushiness and emptiness of the libertarian answers to our troubled healthcare system. Note the real-world consequences of this sort of adolescent thinking, and the hostility its acolytes express when confronted with same.

... Point 2 openly contradict their own goal (it's on the top of the page) and point 3 is in lala land when it comes to medical safety. I'll be very surprised if they do know the origin of FDA and are aware on what type of corruption scandals FDA has been involved in (hint, getting disaproval on a dangerous, non-funtional drug is still as expensive as getting an approval on a functional one).

As a governing philosophy, libertarianism is exactly as realistic as communism. Both suffer from good intentions and starry-eyed idealism, neither works once you scale past the family level. The similarities between the two are quite striking.

I haven't red it in full, but the description of John Galt land have struck me as pretty close to a communist ideal (From each according to his ability, to each according to his need), only inhabitated by supermen, all with very high abillities, with a thin capitalistic veil to cover it up. Not sure if the impression changes by a detailed description.