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  1. #1
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I'll never understand how you can think a service is a right.
    Meh, casting healthcare as a "right" is a distraction.

    Markets are great, but they aren't great at everything. I see absolutely no real-world evidence that healthcare can function well as a market-driven enterprise. No other industrialized nation is trying to control/enact it as such, and there might be a reason. Most other nations also frown on privatized military, privatized police, privatized roads, etc.

    The closest to a market-based healthcare system in an industrialized nation (besides us, with our Reagan-enacted jackalope crony-capitalist/socialist hybrid) would be ... wait for it ... Switzerland.

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Meh, casting healthcare as a "right" is a distraction.

    Markets are great, but they aren't great at everything. I see absolutely no real-world evidence that healthcare can function well as a market-driven enterprise. No other industrialized nation is trying to control/enact it as such, and there might be a reason. Most other nations also frown on privatized military, privatized police, privatized roads, etc.

    The closest to a market-based healthcare system in an industrialized nation (besides us, with our Reagan-enacted jackalope crony-capitalist/socialist hybrid) would be ... wait for it ... Switzerland.
    I am effectively convinced of your argument at this point, with caveats:

    Most things fail to function well as government driven enterprises. It is a peculiar situation, where many things work well in a market-driven setting, but health care has flopped.

    Personally, I believe that duress-based services do not follow market forces and should be treated differently. We should aim to harness the benefits of market forces with the security of government intervention ONLY for health care. The ACA can be adjusted to help do this. It is going to be difficult and it won't be done if we act purely as impediments to it, or if we eliminate even the harshest critics.

    Our system was broken before the President touched it. It is now shattered - BUT, like the London Fire of 1666, maybe it is just what we needed to start fixing it and building something world leading again.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 11-08-2013 at 02:23.
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  3. #3
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    The closest to a market-based healthcare system in an industrialized nation (besides us, with our Reagan-enacted jackalope crony-capitalist/socialist hybrid) would be ... wait for it ... Switzerland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forbes
    Swiss citizens buy insurance for themselves; there are no employer-sponsored or government-run insurance programs. Hence, insurance prices are transparent to the beneficiary.
    Boom. Right there is the answer. Ever since FDR-era wage controls (that forced employers to add insurance coverage to their compensation packages since they couldn't raise wages), our insurance system has been spiraling out of control. Any serious healthcare reform has to break the attachment of work and insurance.

    The best insurance I ever had was when I was out of work and forced to get private insurance. I asked if I could keep it when I got my next job- but they were legally unable to offer it to someone who had insurance offered to them at work. That's moronic.

    As I read it, the Swiss system is basically Obamacare, had it been written by people who were reasonably intelligent... instead of by Democrats.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    As I read it, the Swiss system is basically Obamacare, had it been written by people who were reasonably intelligent... instead of by Democrats.
    You might want to read up a little more on Swisscare ... which begat HeritageCare ... which begat RomneyCare ... which begat ... eh, you know where this leads.

    The most productive thing for Republicans, going forward, would be to look at the obvious problems in Obamacare, and reach back to the solutions already tested and applied in SwissCare (and already obstructed by Republicans in congress), declare that they are geniuses and have a fix, and move forward.

    Hell, if it salves their egos, they can even tell everyone that this is what they meant by "repeal and replace." Whatever. Go nuts. But maybe, you know, work together to make something better. All of that touchy-feely let's-actually-try-to-govern stuff.
    Last edited by Lemur; 11-08-2013 at 04:03. Reason: Added linkage.

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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    You might want to read up a little more on Swisscare ... which begat HeritageCare ... which begat RomneyCare ... which begat ... eh, you know where this leads..
    So, it is akin to labeling the latest scandal "urinatinginthewindgate" or whatever "gate" is being lobbed about. Gads but our public lexicon is thin.
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    I am curious.
    In Canada, under "socialized" medicine I just got discharged from the hospital.
    I ended up going to emergency from a clinic I stopped in at due to nausea and a continued lack of appetite.
    The doctor called me in to discuss test results=>I walked in the door and was handed a letter=>you are a sick man, get to emergency.
    Turns out, my kidneys shut down at some point,...I had no idea.
    So 6 days in the hospital; much blood, electrolytes, heart medicine, oxygen, food, bed rest and a raft of specialists.
    Out of pocket costs so far = $0.00; that will change when I fill my prescriptions => what would be my experience in the USA?

    I am also slated to be fitted with a fistula and will be undergoing a regime of home dialysis; machine and materials provided by the state.
    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 11-08-2013 at 13:01.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    I guess in the American system it would be something like 2000$ for the letter the doctor handed you, 100$ for the hour he spent examining and talking to you, 3000$ for sending stuff to the lab, 50000$ for six days in the hospital and you can buy the dialysis machine yourself for 10000$ if you want to live a little longer.

    In an ideal system however, the free market would decide whether you get a kidney failure or a heart disease in the first place.


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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Yikes! what happened to make your kiney shut down?
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I guess in the American system it would be something like 2000$ for the letter the doctor handed you, 100$ for the hour he spent examining and talking to you, 3000$ for sending stuff to the lab, 50000$ for six days in the hospital and you can buy the dialysis machine yourself for 10000$ if you want to live a little longer.

    In an ideal system however, the free market would decide whether you get a kidney failure or a heart disease in the first place.
    This is ridiculous. No way the dialysis machine would be that cheap to buy. That's probably the cost just to have it used on you for that week. Also, the cost is way to low for the doctor examination (I've gotten $175 bill, pre-insurance, for 15 minutes).

    I'm not really joking.

    However, you should read the article "Bitter Pill" by Steven Brill (PDF alert!). It discusses, in great depth, the astronomical cost of care in the USA and looks at reasons why (like hospitals charging 100x the cost for over the counter medicine).

    As I understand it I suffer from a condition that causes the kidney to eat itself.
    Wow, that's unnerving. Best of luck with your treatment.

    CR
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  10. #10
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will Obamacare succeed where term limits failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Out of pocket costs so far = $0.00; that will change when I fill my prescriptions => what would be my experience in the USA?
    Two thoughts:

    1. The USA system is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be (who exactly gets stuck with the inflated bills is a hotly contested issue every single time), but you've got the general outline correct.
    2. Your out-of-pocket may be $0, but you are still paying. (Ain't no such thing as a free lunch.) But you are paying in a much more rational manner than we do south of the border.

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