1.Islam Women & Sex

[Husar]

Yeahyeah, you all know I am right about the position of women in the islam. Difference is that I actually care, and others want to pretend it's all unicorns and rainbows. Even if they know it isn't. Why let these women down, you can't relativate your way out of the ambuigity that is putting respect for islam above women's rights if you are an enlightened westerner. Rediculing the situation is even worse than relativating imho.

Who pretends it's all unicorns and rainbows? You're the one who likes to pretend it's all unsolvable misery and that we need more apartheid.

The Christian world was never based on loans without interest, though. Christian Europe has always found a way to justify money-lending with interest, either by outsourcing it to the Jews(who are going to burn anyway) or making up elaborate excuses for it.

The situation is the same in the muslim world. There are a few banks(both christian and muslim) doing loans without interest, but they are just curiosities.

So what? The worshipping of mammon was already widely criticized in the bible, I didn't say it's a new problem.

[HoreTore]

So what? The worshipping of mammon was already widely criticized in the bible, I didn't say it's a new problem.

I'm not arguing against you, my dear German

Interest is indeed regarded as Satans doing in both the Quran and the Bible, but neither the christian nor the muslim have ever cared much about it.

[Fragony]

Who pretends it's all unicorns and rainbows? You're the one who likes to pretend it's all unsolvable misery and that we need more apartheid.

I do? Must have missed that. I do feel that there is absolutily no reason to cater islam, as it is the exact opposite of well, just about everything the west should stand for. It has no place here. An immigrant leaves his troubles behind and can settle here, what should I call someone who brings his troubles with him?

Screw the islam, it's vile. Not only to women, but also towards gays, or just about everything really, jews, christians, atheists. But screw lefties the most because they are total hypocrites. You can't respect islam and respect human rights at the same time. It's impossible.

[rajpoot]

Question is what Islam are you talking about.
Every religion has a few silly aspects that have no place in the enlightened West (although you should call in enlightened world. I mean even if you forget Asia, is Australia backward?).
Different people follow religions differently. Every religion can be abused by extremists because a lot of stuff that is written can be twisted to suit their dirty purposes. That does not mean that practicing that religion becomes inherently bad. There are pious Muslims here and elsewhere in the world who treat their women with as much respect and dignity as any Christian or Buddhist or Hindu would.
The kind of abuse that is reported does not come from religious teachings. It comes from centuries of cultural evils that were propagated across time because no one spoke up and said, "That's stupid, inhuman and downright insulting to women. We should stop doing that".
Now though people who are being brought up differently have begun saying just that. Educated, learned Muslims free from the shackles of obsolete customs and extremism and changing things. Look at pictures of Afghanistan from before the time of Al Qaeda. People in those pictures are Muslims. Everyone tends to forget these things.
Another example is from Hinduism. Out here till a few years back it was customary for women to burn themselves on their deceased husband's pyre, called Sati. It was abolished, partly due to an enlightened soul who went by the name of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and partly due to the British Raj. That does not make Hinduism inherently bad.

[Beskar]

I think our two resident scholars, total relism and EasternSpartakus should discuss and debate all these issues together. It would be an enlightening experience.

[Sir Moody]

I think our two resident scholars, total relism and EasternSpartakus should discuss and debate all these issues together. It would be an enlightening experience.

do you think the forum can handle that many embedded links?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Question is what Islam are you talking about.
Every religion has a few silly aspects that have no place in the enlightened West (although you should call in enlightened world. I mean even if you forget Asia, is Australia backward?).

Judging by the local turn out it's hard to say. Wasabe speaks to the "clearly enligntened" but Papewaio and Pever' on the other hand......

[Hax]

I have no problem differentiating, a muslim is just someone from an islamic country to me.

That's just stupid.

There are non-Muslims in every "Islamic" country.

[Brenus]

All religions want to control sex, and all blame women for the male lust. Islam is not an exception, but not alone either. It is what religions are: seeking control on individuals and imposing rules easy to break, then punishing the "sinners" in the name of a "morality".

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think comments like this:

I agree. It is not enough to hate Islam because of the actions of a few. We must learn to hate Islam itself for its ability to be abused by the actions of a few.

are kind of missing KurdishSpartakus' point. KurdishSpartakus is arguing that the Islamic belief system as expressed in the Koran and the Hadiths is inherently oppressive and unjust, especially towards women. He is not saying that all people who identify as Muslims are oppressive towards women - but I guess he is saying that when these more liberal Muslims become Westernised and treat women well, they are doing it in spite of the Koran, not because of it.

If I may try to express what out Kurdish friend is getting at - I think he means that whatever social and political developments have happened in the Islamic world over the last millennia and a bit, the Islamic belief system will always be rooted in a set of writings that set strict social and moral codes according to the norms of 7th Century Arabia. As such, although the Islamic world may evolve beyond these roots, those roots will themselves always be a cause of opposition to healthy social development. All Muslims might not treat woman barbarically - but the Koran tells them to do so.

While it is easy to mock him and say "bla bla moderate Muslims", this is really a lazy approach and missing the point since he is talking about the Koran/Hadiths as holy texts and their obvious influence upon modern Islam. I think this is especially relevant given the recent explosion of fundamentalist Islam across the entire Islamic world, which seeks to interpret the Koran in a very literal and dogmatic fashion. I think we should all also remember that while we are sitting comfortably enjoying the benefits of the free world, KurdishSpartakus lives in a country and a society with a highly fundamentalist take on Islam.

It is what religions are: seeking control on individuals and imposing rules easy to break, then punishing the "sinners" in the name of a "morality".

So... kind of like your own rather totalitarian vision of French republicanism that you have expressed over the years?

[Fragony]

That's just stupid.

There are non-Muslims in every "Islamic" country.

Yeah, make that muslim background

[HoreTore]

Yeah, make that muslim background

So.... A member of the Syrian Orthodox church has a "muslim background"? How does that make any sense?

[Husar]

I do? Must have missed that. I do feel that there is absolutily no reason to cater islam, as it is the exact opposite of well, just about everything the west should stand for. It has no place here. An immigrant leaves his troubles behind and can settle here, what should I call someone who brings his troubles with him?

Screw the islam, it's vile. Not only to women, but also towards gays, or just about everything really, jews, christians, atheists. But screw lefties the most because they are total hypocrites. You can't respect islam and respect human rights at the same time. It's impossible.

But then Christians are also mostly hypocrites. You keep refering to islam and you mean fundamentalist islam, which is ia bit of a niche. But so is fundamentalist christianity, which gets much less flak from you. Who do you you think is trying so hard to ban gay marriages and gay behavior and what not around Europe, in the USA and in Russia? And we already discussed how most "christians" are hypocrites because they pay lip service to a religion and then don't really follow it. The bible says that men loving men is an abomination unto god and while Jesus preached a far more relaxed approach, most christians who actually believe do not want to make such sins legal in any way.

[Fragony]

But then Christians are also mostly hypocrites. You keep refering to islam and you mean fundamentalist islam, which is ia bit of a niche. But so is fundamentalist christianity, which gets much less flak from you. Who do you you think is trying so hard to ban gay marriages and gay behavior and what not around Europe, in the USA and in Russia? And we already discussed how most "christians" are hypocrites because they pay lip service to a religion and then don't really follow it. The bible says that men loving men is an abomination unto god and while Jesus preached a far more relaxed approach, most christians who actually believe do not want to make such sins legal in any way.

Why would I give christiantity any EXTRA flak. Face it, you can't be a humanist and an islamapoligist at the same time. Haxie will probably be screaming Avaroes! but I got him in time, I allready mentioned avaroes. Not here but before. And there are more, it's true. But there is a WHOLE lot more of the nastier aspect of having a desert ideoligy in a modern civilisation.

[total relism]

Question is what Islam are you talking about.
Every religion has a few silly aspects that have no place in the enlightened West (although you should call in enlightened world. I mean even if you forget Asia, is Australia backward?).
Different people follow religions differently. Every religion can be abused by extremists because a lot of stuff that is written can be twisted to suit their dirty purposes. That does not mean that practicing that religion becomes inherently bad. There are pious Muslims here and elsewhere in the world who treat their women with as much respect and dignity as any Christian or Buddhist or Hindu would.
The kind of abuse that is reported does not come from religious teachings. It comes from centuries of cultural evils that were propagated across time because no one spoke up and said, "That's stupid, inhuman and downright insulting to women. We should stop doing that".
Now though people who are being brought up differently have begun saying just that. Educated, learned Muslims free from the shackles of obsolete customs and extremism and changing things. Look at pictures of Afghanistan from before the time of Al Qaeda. People in those pictures are Muslims. Everyone tends to forget these things.
Another example is from Hinduism. Out here till a few years back it was customary for women to burn themselves on their deceased husband's pyre, called Sati. It was abolished, partly due to an enlightened soul who went by the name of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and partly due to the British Raj. That does not make Hinduism inherently bad.

I think the op's point was that true islam, teaches bad of woman, not that some muslims [western liberal] dont follow it. But tha koran and hadiths speak clearly as does early history of islam.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

woman
Koran says you can beat your wife 4.34
marry girls before their first period. 65.4
Qur’an 4:34—Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Qur’an 2:282— . . . and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other . . .
Sahih al-Bukhari 2658—The Prophet said: “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said: “Yes.” He said: “This is because of the deficiency of her mind.”
woman must breast feed 2 years if men wish 2.223
wives need to do good works to go to heaven 33.27-30
men get two times the inheritance that woman get 4 10-12 different punishment for men and woman, woman get more severe 4 15-16 men have authority over woman 4 34-35
iron fist of Islam reminds woman whos in control in jedd Saudi Arabia
Muhammad allowed rape in woman in territories they conquered 4.24 right hand refers to those taken in battle explained in hadith
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/
Qur’an 4:3—And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women." Sahih Bukhari#7:62:33
Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
#'Aisha [Muhammad wife] said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715: Translation of Sahih Bukhari,

Muslim (9:3506)#- Muhammad's father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by#slappinghis wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him.# According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.
Abu Dawud (2142)#-#"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Sahih Muslim 142—[Muhammad said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense.
Sahih Al-Bukhari 1462—[Muhammad said], "O women! Give to charity, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women." The women asked, "O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He said: "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious man astray."
However, even if these women were to stop cursing and to start thanking their husbands, their prospects for the afterlife would still leave much to be desired. According to Muhammad, Muslim women can look forward to an eternity of standing in corners, waiting for men to come and have sex with them:
Sahih Al-Bukhari 4879—Allah’s Apostle said: "In Paradise there is a pavilion made of a single hollow pearl sixty miles wide, in each corner of which there are wives who will not see those in the other corners; and the believers will visit and enjoy them."
Robert Spencer vs. Moustafa Zayed: Does Islam Grant Equal Rights to Women? http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011...html?HYPERLINK "http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/08/robert-spencer-vs-moustafa-zayed-does.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+answeringmuslims/ynNl+(Answering+Muslims)"utm_source=feedburnerHYPERLINK "http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/08/robert-spencer-vs-moustafa-zayed-does.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+answeringmuslims/ynNl+(Answering+Muslims)"&HYPERLINK "http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/08/robert-spencer-vs-moustafa-zayed-does.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+answeringmuslims/ynNl+(Answering+Muslims)"utm_medium=emailHYPERLINK "http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/08/robert-spencer-vs-moustafa-zayed-does.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+answeringmuslims/ynNl+(Answering+Muslims)"&HYPERLINK "http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/08/robert-spencer-vs-moustafa-zayed-does.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+answeringmuslims/ynNl+(Answering+Muslims)"utm_campaign=Feed%3A+answeringmuslims%2FynNl+%28Answering+Muslims%29

Muslim men can have sex with captures slaves and wives.
Muhammad allowed his followers to practice a form of prostitution called#Muta

#The Qur’an permits Muslims to have sex with their female captives and slaves (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). As the Muslim armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from God to guide them in their treatment of their female captives:
Qur’an 23:1-6—The Believers must (Eventually) win through—Those who humble themselves In their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds Of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined To them in the marriage bond, Or (the captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (in their case) they are Free from blame.

Qur'an 70:22-30—Not so those devoted To Prayer—Those who remain steadfast To their prayer; And those in whose wealth Is a recognized right For the (needy) who asks And him who is prevented (For some reason from asking); And those who hold To the truth of the Day Of Judgement; And those who fear The displeasure of their Lord—For their Lord’s displeasure Is the opposite of Peace And Tranquility—And those who guard Their chastity, Except with their wives And the (captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (then) they are not To be blamed.

Sunan Abu Dawud 2150—Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" [Qur’an 4:24]. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
Sahih Muslim 3432—Allah’s Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (4:24)" (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda period came to an end).

Sahih Muslim 3371—We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 4138—We went out with Allah’s Apostle for the invasion of Bun Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus [same as "azl" above]. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said: "How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle who is present among us? We asked (him) about it and he said: "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul till the Day of Resurrection is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Sahih Muslim 3384—Jabir bin Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported that a person asked Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) saying: I have a slave-girl and I practice azl with her, whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: This cannot prevent that which Allah has decreed. The person then came (after some time) and said: Messenger of Allah, the slave-girl about whom I talked to you has conceived, whereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am the servant of Allah and His Messenger.

Sahih Muslim 3248—Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that Jabir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet and during the time of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar.

Umar not Muhammad forbid practice later on

Sahih Muslim 3250—Abu Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'a (Tamattu’ of Hajj 1846 and Tamattu’ with women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger. Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Legal prostitution in early islam.

Sami Zaatari vs. David Wood: Is Muhammad a Good Role Model for Society?

[Sarmatian]

I think the op's point was that true islam, teaches bad of woman, not that some muslims [western liberal] dont follow it. But tha koran and hadiths speak clearly as does early history of islam.

Taking stuff out of context is a poor way to make your case stronger.

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

To be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

... and so on and so forth...


And the overarching point zealots, fanatics and the rest of close minded people seem to forget is that the west finally became enlightened and liberal when it removed religion out of politics and education, not because there was something inherently more enlightening in Christianity than in Islam.

[Hax]

Averroes is long dead, nobody cares.

I have to go to class now.

Also, when is the last time that I "defended" Islam? Two years or something?

EDIT: What I really have trouble understanding is why people still go to the Bible or the Quran or whatever when they want to study the behaviour of religious people. In my mind, it would make more sense to study the people themselves.

[total relism]

Taking stuff out of context is a poor way to make your case stronger.

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

To be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

... and so on and so forth...


And the overarching point zealots, fanatics and the rest of close minded people seem to forget is that the west finally became enlightened and liberal when it removed religion out of politics and education, not because there was something inherently more enlightening in Christianity than in Islam.

I dont have time to be brought into long discussion on this at moment sooo..


I agree fully with you on out of context,if you believe the Koranic passages and hadiths are taken out, you should study before assuming. There are plenty of debates out there with scholars that have studied for years, you can watch and see stuff that people like leaderx [above] and western liberal Muslims will try to say they are out of context, than watch them be refuted. Also you can look to the life of Muhammad and early islam, see if it reflects modern western islam.

I suggest here
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/p/women.html

than debates
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/p/debates.html

type in woman/islam you will find many debates on these subjects.


Christian passages
for man being the head of wife read

men the head of woman/above in charge the bible clearly states they are head of the house. for what that means and how its applied read
mark 10 42-44


for the rest eve and pauls letters under woman in the bible.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...nal&highlight=


"And the overarching point zealots, fanatics and the rest of close minded people seem to forget is that the west finally became enlightened and liberal when it removed religion out of politics and education, not because there was something inherently more enlightening in Christianity than in Islam."


this sounds the most close minded statement of all, everyone but you sucks. The enlightenment happened fully because Christianity, universities hospitals science better forms of government [republic voting etc] etc the bible became available in mass to the populace and everything changed, it was the protestant reformation. But yes more liberal since we got rid of god [america 1940's-1960's and since] i say the change is worse,much worse. Also this last century has seen more death and suffering [Communism,holocaust etc] than previous 15 centuries of Christian kingship [not proper biblical rule]. Also since "religion" has been removed from education, education has drastically declined in every area, except money spent on it. Showing that proper education can do much more with less money [christian home school today,public pre 1963 i think?]. I would post much for links,books,charts but we know your to open minded to even look into it.