Special Forces - who is the best?

[Sarmatian]

They do have their uses, but the typical hero worship is undeserved, especially Hollywood crap in which they're represented as superhuman. Throw them behind enemy lines with two nails and a piece of rope and they'll build tanks, helicopters, airplanes and a makeshift base. After that they'll destroy ten enemy divisions, stop a nuclear warhead from launching, capture a dictator and be home for lunch. At least one of them will then quit the army and devote his life to his girlfriend who he dumped just prior to the mission. At least until the sequel in which he will again be recruited and he won't be able to refuse because of his sense of duty.

In the case of Osama mission you mentioned, think about what they really did - they crossed into another country illegally (creating a diplomatic incident) and performed an assassination (creating another diplomatic incident). The effect - Bin Laden is now dead, hurrah!!! Unfortunately, the terrorist organization is still alive and well and it falls again to the grunts on the ground to deal with it in the only way possible, by cutting the funding and taking away their manpower and support, either by direct combat or by winning hearts and minds of the population.

[Myth]

They do have their uses, but the typical hero worship is undeserved, especially Hollywood crap in which they're represented as superhuman. Throw them behind enemy lines with two nails and a piece of rope and they'll build tanks, helicopters, airplanes and a makeshift base. After that they'll destroy ten enemy divisions, stop a nuclear warhead from launching, capture a dictator and be home for lunch. At least one of them will then quit the army and devote his life to his girlfriend who he dumped just prior to the mission. At least until the sequel in which he will again be recruited and he won't be able to refuse because of his sense of duty.

In the case of Osama mission you mentioned, think about what they really did - they crossed into another country illegally (creating a diplomatic incident) and performed an assassination (creating another diplomatic incident). The effect - Bin Laden is now dead, hurrah!!! Unfortunately, the terrorist organization is still alive and well and it falls again to the grunts on the ground to deal with it in the only way possible, by cutting the funding and taking away their manpower and support, either by direct combat or by winning hearts and minds of the population.

I daresay the bolded part is taken care of by Special Forces. The Green Berets do exactly this, I posted it once and Husar also did. The Rangers and Green Berets are the ones who handle this. You can't fight a war on terror (it's a stupid name but bear with me) with tanks and grunts. The movies are stupid yes, but the OP on Osama achieved what it was supposed to do. Diplomatic incidents don't matter much to a country as powerful as the USA, while eliminating this rogue CIA trained agent was a priority. The pure profit in public opinion was worth it. My point was not whether it was a good idea or not to kill Osama or what it achieved, but when presented with the need to carry out such an operation you have to assign it to someone. Who is that someone if not the Special Forces units?

[Husar]

Take the elimination of Osama for example. Did that not boost morale through the roof? Whom would you entrust such an op to if you were in a position to make that decision?

The SAC perhaps?

Everybody loves to watch a carpet(/nuclear) bombing except from directly below.

Oh and, the Delta Force are Green Berets because Green Berets is not a unit but an umbrella term for people who used to wear....green berets....which were only worn by special operators. There was a bit of a ruckus lately when other US army units got black berets or something because berets alone were usually reserved to somewhat special people who kill their enemies in especially effective ways.
It was seen as an attempt to boost the morale of common throwaway soldiers that could be to the detriment of the more sophisticated princesses of death who had earned their berets through merit.

The thing about berets is that when you stab someone from behind you're a despicable coward but when you do it wearing a ghilly suit and a beret, then you're awesome. That's why berets should only be given to people who earned them through merit because one has to earn the right not to be a coward.

[Ironside]

If two SF teams meets, who win? The defender, always the defender. Why?

Because even if the attacker wins, they failed their mission. All SF teams are close enough that the winning team will always take losses and be delayed enough that any close reinforcements will have time to respond.

And if you're talking about winning the hearts and minds of the population, the most important thing is attitude. Troops that feel genuine and caring is going to do much better than those with a strict military protocol attitude.

[Brenus]

The problem is your view of Special Forces is actually wrong. Special Forces are not going behind enemy lines in a killing 1000 a day. The Special Forces dropped from 3000 metres, buried themselves and report, undetected, what they see. For one sniper killing one person, the job of hundreds of teams is spying, and to do that, you avoid to kill at all cost as, for unknown reason, it may alarm the enemies.
I interviewed one of this “special” for my Doctorate on the French Indochina War. He was the LO of the Roger Vandenberghe’s commando, and he just confirm it: Infiltration, location on map, relay to artillery and job done.

Like the paratroopers, the Special Forces are Infantry on Amphetamine. Movies don’t help in understanding this.

The Special Forces have the same effect and for the same reason than a killer going in a cinema and killing 50 unarmed persons. They are ready; they are equipped, when the others are not. The difference of course is in war that the best way to do it: by night, fog and rain, when the enemies are in pyjamas and sleeping (or sleepy, cursing the weather, waiting to go back in a warmish barracks out of the weather).

[Sigurd]

Marinejegerkommdandoen (MJK) is the best special forces in the world, hands down.

[Husar]

If two SF teams meets, who win? The defender, always the defender. Why?

Because even if the attacker wins, they failed their mission. All SF teams are close enough that the winning team will always take losses and be delayed enough that any close reinforcements will have time to respond.

And if you're talking about winning the hearts and minds of the population, the most important thing is attitude. Troops that feel genuine and caring is going to do much better than those with a strict military protocol attitude.

I do not think Spetsnaz would take losses when the Delta Force are defending their barn:



Around 1:45 you can see a typical Marinejegerkommdandoen defensive position and what Spetsnaz would do to it.
600m is beyond the effective range of common Delta Force, SAS and SASR weaponry.

I also forgot that some special forces were not mentioned here, either because they do not send enough propaganda material to the military channel or because they are clearly not worth mentioning:

Germany: KSK - became really famous when some of them made a photograph of themselves next to a pile of bones from Afghans they had killed.
Kampfschwimmer - German Navy SEALS equivalent, even the DDR had such a special forces group:



Cuba: Desembarco de Granma - no idea what they have to do with your grandma

France: BSFT:



GCP-CRAP - probably not as bad as the name suggests:



Commandos Marine

Somalia: PIRATES - mostly known for their ability to board ships completely unnoticed, minor deficits in direct combat:



There is also a list sorted by countries on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_forces_units

[Sigurd]

Around 1:45 you can see a typical Marinejegerkommdandoen defensive position and what Spetsnaz would do to it.

Truth is... Spetsnaz would never know if MJK was close by. Countless examples for this has been confirmed in "joint" exercises. Especially the Brits and the Americans.

[Husar]

Truth is... Spetsnaz would never know if MJK was close by. Countless examples for this has been confirmed in "joint" exercises. Especially the Brits and the Americans.

I've said numerous times now that Spetsnaz are far superior to Americans and Brits, you cannot compare them. Americans also have "Marines" who can't swim according to anecdotal evidence from a trustworthy .org member...

[Sarmatian]

The problem is your view of Special Forces is actually wrong. Special Forces are not going behind enemy lines in a killing 1000 a day. The Special Forces dropped from 3000 metres, buried themselves and report, undetected, what they see. For one sniper killing one person, the job of hundreds of teams is spying, and to do that, you avoid to kill at all cost as, for unknown reason, it may alarm the enemies.
I interviewed one of this “special” for my Doctorate on the French Indochina War. He was the LO of the Roger Vandenberghe’s commando, and he just confirm it: Infiltration, location on map, relay to artillery and job done.

Like the paratroopers, the Special Forces are Infantry on Amphetamine. Movies don’t help in understanding this.

The Special Forces have the same effect and for the same reason than a killer going in a cinema and killing 50 unarmed persons. They are ready; they are equipped, when the others are not. The difference of course is in war that the best way to do it: by night, fog and rain, when the enemies are in pyjamas and sleeping (or sleepy, cursing the weather, waiting to go back in a warmish barracks out of the weather).

Why do you bring sanity to this madness? If you continue it's gonna stop being a peeing contest...

I do not think Spetsnaz would take losses when the Delta Force are defending their barn:

And, as every serious military strategist knows, if you lose the barn, you've lost the war.

[Husar]

Why do you bring sanity to this madness? If you continue it's gonna stop being a peeing contest...

What? All my posts are carefully crafted and well-reasoned and I even forgot to mention the Special Forces of my own country at first.
Just because some people cannot hold back from mentioning the overglorified special forces from their own monkeysphere that does not mean the entire thread is a urination contest.

And, as every serious military strategist knows, if you lose the barn, you've lost the war.

Indeed, ask the French about the Maginot line or the Belgians about losing their frontline barns in 1940.

[Montmorency]

Marinejegerkommdandoen (MJK) is the best special forces in the world, hands down.

I see your Special Norses and raise you...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Kadagar_AV]

My vote would have to go to the Russians...

Spetnaz come through a training regiment completely different to western ones. They also have at least as much practical experience as the USAnians.

The Alpha Team have made it there through warfare within the Russian army, not training.

[Sigurd]

I've said numerous times now that Spetsnaz are far superior to Americans and Brits, you cannot compare them. Americans also have "Marines" who can't swim according to anecdotal evidence from a trustworthy .org member...

That video you claim is Spetsnaz looks like ordinary troops on a Sunday trip compared to:

[Husar]

That video you claim is Spetsnaz looks like ordinary troops on a Sunday trip compared to:

Every Hollywood director can show off like that with a bunch of spoiled millionaire actors. Not to forget that the rap is from America, Spetsnaz can make their own rap.

[Sigurd]

Every Hollywood director can show off like that with a bunch of spoiled millionaire actors. Not to forget that the rap is from America, Spetsnaz can make their own rap.

Spoiled actors would never allow their face to be covered up for more than a few seconds in any film. Which incidentally in the Spetznas film, seems not to be an issue. I suspect the Spasmnaz film are filled with spoiled but poor actors (indicated by their horrible fake costumes and toy guns).

[Sarmatian]

Spoiled actors would never allow their face to be covered up for more than a few seconds in any film. Which incidentally in the Spetznas film, seems not to be an issue. I suspect the Spasmnaz film are filled with spoiled but poor actors (indicated by their horrible fake costumes and toy guns).

Every special forces geek know Spetznas aren't the most elite group in Russia. The elite group is so top secret, the members don't even know what it's called. To be even considered, you have to capture a live Siberian tiger female, after threatening her cubs, with your bare hands. The tiger must be unharmed, otherwise Putin comes personally and kills you with martial arts.

After that, you have to capture and domesticate a wild bear, and later you go to battle riding on it.

[Fisherking]

Most countries have too many of these people and depleat their conventional forces. The US may be the worst for this.

They use special ops for jobs that should be using cavalry scouts or a tank-infantry team.

Tell me why the navy needs 2,000 seals when they have marine divisions. Special Ops are support troops not the battle fighters.

The army cuts whole divisions and expands rangers and special forces

Even the Air Force has thousands of them. For what?

They train their infantry to act like special ops when they should be learning basic tactics. Everybody wants to be a ranger.

They blow more money on a ranger company than an armored brigade. I won’t even go to what they do with the more classified organizations.

Elite formations don’t equate to a strong war winning military. The mind set has pretty much been losing the war on terror or any other operations they have tried.

They interest Hollywood and the public and glorify war.

Surgical strikes don’t win guerrilla wars. Denying the fighters a hiding place does. Occupy and pacify. They don’t commit the troops to occupy and they had rectal-cranial-insertion when it came to hearts and minds.

They need to get rid of about 90% of these forces and get back to occupying ground and denying the enemy a place and opportunity to operate.

They fight short sharp actions against poorly defended objectives. If it is heavily defended they get help, except they are getting rid of the help to by more gadgets that still won’t get the job done.

They use police SWAT tactics where one grenade or an RPG would take out the whole damned unit.

The people behind this need theirs heads examined, preferably in a jar.

[Sigurd]

Every special forces geek know Spetznas aren't the most elite group in Russia. The elite group is so top secret, the members don't even know what it's called. To be even considered, you have to capture a live Siberian tiger female, after threatening her cubs, with your bare hands. The tiger must be unharmed, otherwise Putin comes personally and kills you with martial arts.

After that, you have to capture and domesticate a wild bear, and later you go to battle riding on it.

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some baby seals with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 2000 lb Polar bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the polar bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

[Pannonian]

Norwegian anti-terrorism forces

[Husar]

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some baby seals with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 2000 lb Polar bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the polar bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

That's just barbaric, the poor baby seals.

[Pannonian]

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some Navy SEALs with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 200 lb Russian bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the Russian bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

Corrected.

[Sarmatian]

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some baby seals with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 2000 lb Polar bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the polar bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

Pictures or it didn't happen.

[Kadagar_AV]

I know personal thoughts have little to do with this debate, but there was this one happening in my life that I thought would be worth to share here.

There was this situation in a bar where I was working, where 7 (wannabe gangsta) Turks were hassling a woman. This, big, Russian guy steps over to have a talk with them.

These 7 turks were HUGE, and very obviously criminal and trained street thugs. Anyway, situation escalated and this Russian took them all down, hard.

Now, I tell this because it WASN'T like in the movies, with a special ops guy manhandling a criminal gang. When it was all over, he had been stabbed a few times and was completely beaten up. From what I had seen, it had more to do with him being able to TAKE, rather than give.

Afterwards I asked why he had done it, and he just rolled up his sleeve and shoved the tatoo. "Spetznaz" he said.

He wasn't proud of it. He didn't say it to brag.

He said it to explain why he had gone through what most people don't.

I think each and every Delta Force, SAS or Kampfschwimmer would have the same ethos and same ability to GIVE hell. But what I saw in this Russians eyes gave me whole other perceptions of what it means to sustain hell, and let it mold and shape you.

He saw it as his job to do, that had to go through. No more, no less.

I have met Special Forces operatives from around the world, and they are all elite. Heroes even.

This Russian was just a farmer who joined and made a hard life in the Army. I would however choose him to cover my back any day of the week.

[Montmorency]

It's pretty obvious that both regular and special forces participate. Each is suited to tasks of a different nature. Get over your anti-SF rageboner.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Guys, guys, guys. I know how to settle this debate. Let me just show you how elite American operators train, and you'll realize all your other special forces with fancy sounding foreign names that just mean the same thing can't measure up.

But be warned - this is some intense training and you may not be able to handle it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lARY...ature=youtu.be

CR

[Husar]

SF do not win hearts and minds. The average troops who patrol the streets, talk to local leaders, and deal with the backlash from violent and often unexplained SF raids are the ones who do that.

There's so much wrong in this thread I don't even know where to start. I was gonna stay out of it, but Husar's posts alone are enough to warrant this.

What? Everything I say is perfectly 100% validated truth.

You also completely misunderstood the whole thing about winning hearts and minds and who does that and where and when.
The special forces you deal or dealt with the are the killer commando gung-ho types who pale in comparison to Spetsnaz.
The special forces who are supposed to win hearts and minds, they are different, they were different and they are either not deployed in Afghanistan at all or they are working with locals in US-friendly villages somewhere far away from where you were stationed.

It's also perfectly possible that the bloodthirsty US policies and the end of the cold war in combination with the terrorist scaretactics lead to a change in weight. In the sense that the killer commando special forces were increased in number while the number of winning hearts and minds operators was toned down. This would then obviously be a failure of US military strategy in Afghanistan and here we all thought that one was perfect...

That said I also never called it winning hearts and minds and found that to be a bit wrong as these operators were usually sent to people who weren't all that fond of the enemy in the first place. It's not my fault that American governments in the past years have completely failed to utilize special forces the way they were originally intended to be used and gotten themselves into conflicts they cannot win using their favourite bloodthirsty retaliation rhetoric. That book I have is from 2000, so it was written before 9/11 started the whole terror craze and the downwards spiral in US military tactics and strategies.

The focus on this topic also completely fails to recognize the actual point of my posts, which was that Spetsnaz are superior to all other special forces.

Guys, guys, guys. I know how to settle this debate. Let me just show you how elite American operators train, and you'll realize all your other special forces with fancy sounding foreign names that just mean the same thing can't measure up.

But be warned - this is some intense training and you may not be able to handle it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lARY...ature=youtu.be

CR

Ugh, so they learn how to hit a target at <3m distance, the RPO Shmel has a range of 600m, the Spetsnaz will turn them into Kentucky fried chicks no matter how fast they can draw their peashooters.

[Montmorency]

Ugh, so they learn how to hit a target at <3m distance, the RPO Shmel has a range of 600m, the Spetsnaz will turn them into Kentucky fried chicks no matter how fast they can draw their peashooters.

Just like the Germans would have won the war if they'd gotten a chance to build their 100-ton tanks.

[Strike For The South]

I liked the part where the white guy beat up all the Turks

[Husar]

Just like the Germans would have won the war if they'd gotten a chance to build their 100-ton tanks.

How is that relevant? It's not even correct and bears no resemblance to what I said.

I liked the part where the white guy beat up all the Turks

I liked it too and I have a friend who is a turkey.