The self-styled mayor of Slovyansk, the city held by green men, called for a general hunt of those who speak Ukrainian.Originally Posted by HoreTore
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
The self-styled mayor of Slovyansk, the city held by green men, called for a general hunt of those who speak Ukrainian.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Obviously a compromise must be reached. How about just letting them kill everyone capable of using grammatically correct Ukrainian?
Let's work with Russia and negotiate with the separatists!
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
No he didn't.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
1. Do you think this "mayor" knows the word "grammar" applied to any language?
2. Do you believe that one can find a person using grammatically correct Ukrainian in Slovyansk (except a couple of school teachers)? But, you know, these few are worth a gibbet too.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
http://www.62.ua/article/519508
Verbatim: "Vyachelslav Ponomarev asked the locals to inform "the People's Druzhina" about all suspicious individuals in the city, especially if they speak Ukrainian."
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
And it takes quite an imagination to come from that to "hunt for all who speak Ukrainian". The communication in the city is done in Russian and therefore anyone speaking Ukrainian is very likely not a local.
It's a conflict zone, they're naturally worried about army being sent in again.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Do you think spies who are sent in are stupid enough to use Ukrainian in public? As Brenus puts it, you are having a laugh.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
No, I'm having a laugh at how unusually restrained both sides have been so far, with very little blood spilled on the whole, and how some want to portray anti-government protesters as anti-semitic racist bigots and increase the tensions. Go and spread the hate, it will came back to bite you in the
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Yet you portrayed protesters on maidan in somewhat similar way.No, I'm having a laugh at how unusually restrained both sides have been so far, with very little blood spilled on the whole, and how some want to portray anti-government protesters as anti-semitic racist bigots and increase the tensions. Go and spread the hate, it will came back to bite you in the
I just imagine what order protesters in Slovayansk will introduce all over the place if they have an upper hand in securing federalization and Russian as the second state language. They complain of Russian being supressed, as well as they did in Crimea, but in the latter out of more than 600 schools only NINE were Ukrainian language schools. You can figure out the percentage and compare it to the percentage of Ukrainians living there. It was called "suppression of the Russian language". I wonder how many out of those 9 will keep their status after the annexation.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
No, only some of the ringleaders and those actually being a part of nazi movements like Right Sector.
Idea that you will save Ukrainian language by suppressing Russian is bollox. What Ukrainian language needs is assisted natural development. That means promotion of films, theater plays, magazines, tv shows, literary works, school textbooks... in Ukrainian. That takes time and money. You need to get the country out of the sinkhole and then you can start the slow process. I don't see the problem even now, as most Ukrainians do speak both languages, they're just more likely to use Russian, but promotion of language is naturally an important part of protecting national identity and cultural heritage.I just imagine what order protesters in Slovayansk will introduce all over the place if they have an upper hand in securing federalization and Russian as the second state language. They complain of Russian being supressed, as well as they did in Crimea, but in the latter out of more than 600 schools only NINE were Ukrainian language schools. You can figure out the percentage and compare it to the percentage of Ukrainians living there. It was called "suppression of the Russian language". I wonder how many out of those 9 will keep their status after the annexation.
That doesn't mean suppression of Russian, of course. Why would anyone be so stupid to forcibly deny knowledge of another language, especially one which is spoken by a quarter of a million people around the world? It's already there, kids could learn both by the time they're 7 or so. Teach them English and German in school and you've just put ahead of most of Europeans when the time comes to look for a job.
What you have is an asset, not a liability. It should be treated as such.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
OH COME ON
Such statements have been the calling card of every single large-scale massacre and other atrocities in history. In Indonesia it was everyone who spoke Chinese, in pre-norman England it was everyone who spoke Danish.
I'm not saying that a massacre is on the way, but to dismiss such statements? Unbelievably naive. Making up excuses or trying to find "rational grounds" for such a statement is nonsense. It's only real effect is to heighten tensions, alienate "the other" and pave way for taking the "us vs them" attitude to its logical extreme(genocide).
But I'm happy to see that you now consider it to be wrong to paint the anti-government protesters at Maidan square as fascists.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Who said anything about suppression? I only wanted to show that it is Ukrainian that needs protection and promotion in Ukraine, not Russian. I just see no point for Ukrainian government to promote Russian in Ukraine. Russia will look to it that Russian is promoted anywhere in the world.
I'm ready to put my signature under every word of it.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
You have to consider the context of the statement and the situation on the ground. It's a town where just a few days ago Ukrainian army came to with armoured vehicles.
Keeping an eye on those who aren't locals is way of lessening chances of that happening again. Now, if they start throwing Ukrainian speaker in jail en masse in Slovyansk, I'll agree with your interpretation. Since they haven't done that, I'll stick with mine.
There are protesters and there are ringleaders. I have never called all protesters fascists. I've used nazis/fascists interchangeably, which arguably shouldn't be done but what the heck.But I'm happy to see that you now consider it to be wrong to paint the anti-government protesters at Maidan square as fascists
The people I referred to as either are Svoboda, Right Sector and similar scum.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
If "the mayor" (they hold or held the real legal and legitimate mayor in captivity) believes that any governmental agent will use Ukrainian in the conext you described it means that either he is unbelievably stupid himself or he deems the mentioned agents unbelivably stupid. Choose the one to your liking.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Yes, it's indeed a town infested with an army; the Russian army maintains a strong presence there...
'Keeping an eye on foreigners' is never a good idea unless your aim is genocide or general oppression.
These types are at the fringes in Kiev. They are undisputed rulers in the east.
Yet, you continue to paint a rosy picture of these thugs...
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
The next several weeks will show who was right.
Fringes? They channeled the public protest against corruption and poverty and turned it into anti-Russian/pro-western issue.These types are at the fringes in Kiev. They are undisputed rulers in the east.
Yet, you continue to paint a rosy picture of these thugs...
The second they got to power they:
1) Abandoned the deal with Russia
2) Reinstated the deal with the EU and expressed desire to join NATO
3) Beaten and threatened MP's who disagreed with them into submission or forced them out
4) Tried to ban the use of Russian language officially
5) Tried to ban the communist party
6) Tried to ban the party of regions
7) Tried to depose every regional governor who disagreed with them
It was a win for democracy, that's for sure. And now, since it's been established they're inherently democratic, they can send the army in as a "measured response".
BUT, the bottom line is, even if you think protesters in the east should all be killed, to keep Ukraine free for true Ukrainians, it can't be done, so there's nothing left for Kiev to do except negotiate.
Last edited by Sarmatian; 04-19-2014 at 15:47.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
1&2: That deal was based on a bribe - a very literal one as it turned out, given El Presidente's "living larder".
Something of a foolish thing to have anyway - given that meet needs to be hung for at least a week before you eat it. To whit, the deal was bad for Ukraine, it kept Ukraine reliant on artificially cheap Russian gas, kept it's most corrupt politician in power and prevented any reform - even token ones.
3: Well, yes, but that's not unusual in these situations - if we wrote off a government every time the MP's got into a bust up the UK would have ground to a halt at least 100 years ago - though we're much less exciting now, but we also have less to be excited about. I'm not going to get excited about this.
4: we've been over this - Yakykovich (can't spell the name, always wrong) brought that in as a pro-Russian move. Banning Russian for OFFICIAL USE makes it clear that Ukraine is not Russia - given Russia demonstrably predatory nature that's important if you're trying to Stalin's, sorry Putin's, jackboot off your neck.
5: Same reason - too Pro Russian - hey look - Russia annexed some territory from who recently? It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.
6: See above.
7: Probably premature - but these are the regional governors who were appointed by the suspicious pro-Russian government, ja? Again, I refer you to Crimea.
I don't think the interim government WAS anti-Russian, I'm sure they are now, but they were anti closer ties with Russia on Putin's terms. A point of order here - Ukraine never joined the Commonwealth of Independent States because it rejected Russia's claim to be the sole legal successor to the USSR.
There's more going on here than a group of Kiev's elite going "ooh, Evil Russia!" It bears remembering that, whatever the Tsar might have you believe, Russia owes it's existence to Kiev, not Moscow.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
How can it be a bribe? It was given to Ukraine, not Yanukovich.
For the rest, I can't really believe an educated man can write something like that - cheaper energy is a bad thing now? Preventing economy from collapse and people from freezing is a bad thing? Or is it only bad when it comes from Russia? Next thing I'll hear no one should accept medication from Russia because it can keep them "artificially healthy", or help when drowning because it would result in "artificially breathing"...
The west only found out about Ukrainian economic problems after the coup, it seems - 1bn from US, many more from EU are on the table, being discussed, we'll see how it goes. No one from the west offered it before. I wonder why, but I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with politics.
So, beating and threatening MP's and their families is acceptable and normal in a democracy? Gotcha.3: Well, yes, but that's not unusual in these situations - if we wrote off a government every time the MP's got into a bust up the UK would have ground to a halt at least 100 years ago - though we're much less exciting now, but we also have less to be excited about. I'm not going to get excited about this.
4: we've been over this - Yakykovich (can't spell the name, always wrong) brought that in as a pro-Russian move. Banning Russian for OFFICIAL USE makes it clear that Ukraine is not Russia - given Russia demonstrably predatory nature that's important if you're trying to Stalin's, sorry Putin's, jackboot off your neck.
5: Same reason - too Pro Russian - hey look - Russia annexed some territory from who recently? It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.
6: See above.
The other arguments are even sillier - Should US ban use of English to make it clear that America is not England? Forcibly suppressing a language is the most idiotic policy.
For the rest - you're again using reverse causation and trying to use a consequence to justify a cause.
And again I refer you to the very simple logical concept of causation. You can not use a consequence to justify a cause.7: Probably premature - but these are the regional governors who were appointed by the suspicious pro-Russian government, ja? Again, I refer you to Crimea.
That would be like trying to say that Country A's declaration of war on Country B was justified because Country B's soldiers started shooting after Country A declared war.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Let's compare those accusations with what protesters in the East did when they captured administrative buildings:
1) and 2) proclaimed their plan to separate from Ukraine and join Russia or at least to join the Customs Union
3) beaten and threatened local deputies who disagreed with them into submission or forced them out: a local deputy in Gorlivka who tried to take down the flag of so-called Donetsk people's republic was beaten savagely; the green men still hold the mayor of Slovyansk captive; even more savagely are treated locals who disagree with them - you may try to find information and videos about a 53-year old woman (a doctor, btw) who repeatedly kicked in the face a prostrate pro-Ukrainian in Kharkiv after a pro-Ukrainian meeting was dispersed by separatists. The surgeon who operated him says that parts of skull penetrated into the brain.
4) tried to introduce Russian as the second state language disregarding the stipulation of the constitution (shall I mention switching off all Ukrainian TV channels here or do we need a separate entry for it?)
5) and 6) the self-styled mayor of Slovyansk banned Batkivshchina, Udar and Svoboda on its territory, the same had been done in Crimea before the "referendum"
7) deposed a lot of mayors in Donetsk region introducing so-called people's mayors instead; refused to acknowledge the governors appointed by Kyiv and (in Donetsk) forwarded People's governor instead.
Plus (what was not done by Maidan Nazis): they proclaimed a new state and appealed to Russia to "render help", installed their own police chiefs, supported Russian invasion force, initiated some Gipsy pogroms in Slovyansk.
And whatever violent Maidan protesters might have done they NEVER set women (often with children and/or icons) in front against their opponents.
Now what do you think of eastern separatists? Desperate fighters for a noble cause playing fair? Own up to it: Svoboda speaks fascist, easterners act fascist.
To me it becomes more and more clear that the center of all unrest is in Slovyansk: it is from there that the orders are issued to separatists all over the region, even to those in Donetsk; it is from there that separatists got reinforcements to start their attacks around the region. Note that in Lugansk region, which has as many pro-Russian-minded people (and perhaps more) only the SBU building was captured - no other administrative buildings in small cities and towns. So crushing the green men in Slovyansk will bereave the separatists of all management and unity: already different groups of them forward different demands (up to abolishing vaccination and biometric passports) and do not obey the Party of Regions orders (whatever the Party may claim).
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
... which kind of proves that the protests in the east follow the same pattern as those in Maidan few months ago, which was my point all along.
O, rly?
"Notable in the crowd are the faces of both men and women adorned in camouflage jackets and heavy, protective helmets. In the increasingly violent Euromaidan protest between anti-government advocates and riot police, women are donning gas masks and padded vests to fight alongside men.
The opposition’s women’s brigade, a female unit organized among the protesters, trains women in self-defense tactics. In a special report by Al Jazeera, journalist Neave Barker visits a training facility where several hundred women are learning to fight, are taught how to handle riots, and how to avoid arrest."
21st century is so cool. Everything's documented and you don't even have to try to find written or photographic evidence.
I think the west used people who were fed up with corruption and poverty in transformed it into a political issue, aided by equally corrupt opposition politician and far-right organizations. Russia now does the same, only on a smaller scale, and they need to be treated the same.Now what do you think of eastern separatists? Desperate fighters for a noble cause playing fair? Own up to it: Svoboda speaks fascist, easterners act fascist.
To me it becomes more and more clear that the center of all unrest is in Slovyansk: it is from there that the orders are issued to separatists all over the region, even to those in Donetsk; it is from there that separatists got reinforcements to start their attacks around the region. Note that in Lugansk region, which has as many pro-Russian-minded people (and perhaps more) only the SBU building was captured - no other administrative buildings in small cities and towns. So crushing the green men in Slovyansk will bereave the separatists of all management and unity: already different groups of them forward different demands (up to abolishing vaccination and biometric passports) and do not obey the Party of Regions orders (whatever the Party may claim).
So, either both are illegal, in which case the entire Maidan government needs to vacate their posts along with various governors and mayors in the "Donetsk Republic" or both represent legitimate grievances of Ukrainian citizens and should be addressed as such. That would morally equivalent.
From practical point of view, it is clear that Maidan government doesn't have the means to dislodge the eastern protesters, unless they arm Right Sector and similar fascist organizations. If we operate under the assumption that the current politicians in Kiev aren't completely out of their mind, they know that would trigger a full-blown civil war and possibly even a direct intervention from Russia.
Maidan government has two options: dialogue or civil war. It is that simple.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
I saw your point as trying to paint Maidan black and justify all separatists do because they are not described as fascists. You seem to need a black name pinned on someone to start hating them and condone what others do if they don't have such a name.
Do you not see the difference (note the bold)? Those women on Maidan fought alongside men. Separatists (taught by Russians, who in turn learnt it in Chechnya) skulk behind their women's backs. That's what I meant speaking of fairplay: if you are man enough to start a riot - be a man to the end and be ready to fight.
Last edited by Gilrandir; 04-20-2014 at 11:14.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Well, you saw it wrongly.
aaaand, that's why the picture was also there. Those aren't trained women, but ordinary middle-aged females holding signs that say "mum" in front. The picture was taken on Maidan, in February, btw.Do you not see the difference (note the bold)? Those women on Maidan fought alongside men. Separatists (taught by Russians, who in turn learnt it in Chechnya) skulk behind their women's backs. That's what I meant speaking of fairplay: if you are man enough to start a riot - be a man to the end and be ready to fight.
Get over it, it's 21st century. Equality rulz.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
It was a picture of anti-Maidan activists who came before the Berkuts to show that the latter were someone's children. One of these women was spotted at other anti-Maidan meetings, at least in Kharkiv and Odessa and later in Crimea. Even if it weren't so (which I'm sure was) the picture clearly didn't match the text. Do you think those women were the trainees the article spoke about?
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
ARTIFICIALLY cheap - and you might say it was paid to Ukraine - but where do you think Yanukovich got the money for the mansion? Putin was covering his vassal's debts - effectively paying his credit card bill for him.
All that was on the table before, but Yanukovich preferred the easier Russian deal to dropping the subsidies on Gas.The west only found out about Ukrainian economic problems after the coup, it seems - 1bn from US, many more from EU are on the table, being discussed, we'll see how it goes. No one from the west offered it before. I wonder why, but I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with politics.
Under certain circumstances, it is excusable.So, beating and threatening MP's and their families is acceptable and normal in a democracy? Gotcha.
I didn't say it was smart - I said there as a reason they did it - and it's very common. There's also no evidence I've yet seen of suppression a la the "Welsh Knot" we used to punish children with here. And America has banned "English" - American uses different pronunciation, has different spelling, some unique words, and some grammatical oddities against English. They're mostly mutually intelligible, but it's not 100% and and it's not just a difference in dialect.The other arguments are even sillier - Should US ban use of English to make it clear that America is not England? Forcibly suppressing a language is the most idiotic policy.
So the consequence of Ukraine overthrowing it's corrupt president, having a relatively minor political crisis and making overtures to the EU after months of protest aimed at just that is - Russia annexing Crimea?For the rest - you're again using reverse causation and trying to use a consequence to justify a cause.
No - the Ukrainians took certain steps because they saw Russia as predatory, and they were correct to be worried.
Except that everything snowballed after Russia moved troops into Crimea. Originally, the EU was unwilling to sign the association deal with an interim government, originally, the provisional government just undid some of Yanukovich's most extreme reforms - like reverting to the old Constitution that weakened the president's power and undoing the Law which gave Russian EQUAL status with Ukrainian.And again I refer you to the very simple logical concept of causation. You can not use a consequence to justify a cause.
That would be like trying to say that Country A's declaration of war on Country B was justified because Country B's soldiers started shooting after Country A declared war.
Neither of these are extraordinary moves - as previously noted the language of the French Republic is French, not Breton.
Remember, Putin invaded days after Yanukovich was ousted - the BBC has a timeline:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275
There was really no time for Ukraine to do anything but make noises about what it wanted before Putin sent in his stormtroopers - there's no case for provocation.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
Yes, I agree it was a little misleading. The picture and the text are a part of a longer text about women during Maidan, which mentions that some women were trained for conflict with the police and it also included a picture of normal, everyday women just standing with the words "mum" written on a piece of paper.
Not that it matters much either way, it's 21st century. It just refutes your claim.
Well, I'm sure Ukrainians will be extremely happy about that when they're NATURALLY freezing come next winter. They need that gas and they're on a brink of bankruptcy. What's the big difference between giving them money to pay for the market price of gas and offering them a discount on gas?
If the mansion was the cause of Ukraine's economic problems, then there's nothing to worry about, just sell it. There, I solved Ukrainians insolvency. You may mention that I used to frequent the same forum as you did when I'm receiving the Nobel prize for economy.
Unfortunately, the reality is that the problems in Ukraine are endemic corruption in ALL levels of society and tycoons who have devastated the economy.
Because it was the better and concrete offer.All that was on the table before, but Yanukovich preferred the easier Russian deal to dropping the subsidies on Gas.
Yes, well, we disagree here.Under certain circumstances, it is excusable.
Kudos for sticking to your story, but I wouldn't say that in front of a linguist.I didn't say it was smart - I said there as a reason they did it - and it's very common. There's also no evidence I've yet seen of suppression a la the "Welsh Knot" we used to punish children with here. And America has banned "English" - American uses different pronunciation, has different spelling, some unique words, and some grammatical oddities against English. They're mostly mutually intelligible, but it's not 100% and and it's not just a difference in dialect.
Not exactly - consequence of everything I listed is Russia annexing Crimea.So the consequence of Ukraine overthrowing it's corrupt president, having a relatively minor political crisis and making overtures to the EU after months of protest aimed at just that is - Russia annexing Crimea?
Ok, reverse causation seems to be the thing when one side needs to be presented as the good guys.No - the Ukrainians took certain steps because they saw Russia as predatory, and they were correct to be worried.
Russian never had equal status as Ukrainian. Even during Yanukovich, both sides had to agree to use Russian in court otherwise the process was done in Ukrainian, for instance. Even if it did, it's no excuse, because it is detrimental for the nation in the long run and because it is basically petty nationalism.Except that everything snowballed after Russia moved troops into Crimea. Originally, the EU was unwilling to sign the association deal with an interim government, originally, the provisional government just undid some of Yanukovich's most extreme reforms - like reverting to the old Constitution that weakened the president's power and undoing the Law which gave Russian EQUAL status with Ukrainian.
And the language of USA, Canada, Australia and other countries is English, language of Austria is German, Swiss don't have a Swiss language, in Brazil they speak Portuguese, in Argentina Spanish and in India and China there are dozens of languages in use.Neither of these are extraordinary moves - as previously noted the language of the French Republic is French, not Breton.
On its own, I'd call that decision "petty nationalism". In conjunction with everything else, a rather unpleasant pattern was emerging.
What Russia did in Crimea was wrong, but it is important to understand the chain of events that led to it and not mix cause with consequence.Remember, Putin invaded days after Yanukovich was ousted - the BBC has a timeline:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275
There was really no time for Ukraine to do anything but make noises about what it wanted before Putin sent in his stormtroopers - there's no case for provocation.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
I just realised - we're having an argument on Easter Sunday.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
No we do not. Why should we not?
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
They overlooked a LOT, here's a quick recap from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement
However, US Law is published in English - making English the only working language of the Federal Government from de facto standpoint.
Bringing it back to Ukraine -
If Russian is given official standing alongside Ukrainian you might have a situation where, in some provinces, Laws were written in Russian - thereby prejudicing Ukrainians.
For those who don't know much about translation - the problem is that a Law, treaty, etc. has to have legal force and be interpreted according it's words as well as its intent - when you translate something the words move, and this can cause ambiguity. When international treaties are written they are usually written explicitly in only one or two languages, and then translated into other languages. Only the language the law was WRITTEN in has legal force.
That's why this is such a sensitive issue for Ukraine.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
That is bollox. Swiss manage to do just fine with 4 official languages even though Italian is spoken by only 6.5% and Romansch by 0.5% of the population. I'm also not aware of any legal quagmires in Canada because English and French have the same status. The fact that Ukraine is bilingual is in no way the cause of any of Ukrainian problems nor would any of them go away if they ban the use of Russian.
Anyway, I found an interesting article about US-Russian relations in general, naturally touching on Ukraine crisis, titled How the U.S. made its Putin problem worse
Last edited by Sarmatian; 04-20-2014 at 19:48.
Re: Ukraine-in-a-thread
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
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