Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, right. Employing snipers is what the doctor ordered.
The government forces are acting meekly, for the most part, trying to avoid casualties (including those of civilians) as much as possible. If it was otherwise they could have levelled Slovaynsk with the ground. As I have remarked, they usually leave towns they freed from armed separatists.

Based on reports we have, it is more likely the use of snipers wasn't ordered by Yanukovich. Medical report, leaked phone call, unwillingness of the new government to investigate. After the phone call was leaked, official investigation started and was finished in record breaking time. After that, the lawyers of the sniper victims complained they were being denied access to the information...

It stinks. We may never know for sure what happened, but it stinks big time.

It is debatable if the new government could level anything, as it appears the soldiers are more likely to surrender to than fight protesters. In the end, all those mechanisms were available to Yanukovich but he didn't use them. For the most of the duration, Maidan protesters fought aganst batons, water cannons and tear gas.

Protesters in the east were almost immediately faced with army, paramilitary formations and heavy weaponry.

If the situation there remains stable they don't return. For instance, Mariupol is being patrolled by local police together with militia from local metallurgical plant (owned by Akhmetov). The situation there is stabilized so the separatists' barricades are being removed.

And noone may screw with Akhmetov.

[Kagemusha]

1. Russia sends in special forces and empowers local separatists to act against Maidan government in Eastern Ukraine.
2. Russian special forces take over government buildings in Eastern Ukraine and leave those buildings in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.
3. Maidan Government recruits troops that can be assured of their loyalty, with help of West and sends them to Eastern Ukraine.
4. Maidan government troops and Eastern separatists start clashing.
5. Ukrainians are killing Ukrainians.
6. Who benefits?

[Sarmatian]

6. Who benefits?

China and Iran, for the most part.

[Gilrandir]

1. Russia sends in special forces and empowers local separatists to act against Maidan government in Eastern Ukraine.
2. Russian special forces take over government buildings in Eastern Ukraine and leave those buildings in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.
3. Maidan Government recruits troops that can be assured of their loyalty, with help of West and sends them to Eastern Ukraine.
4. Maidan government troops and Eastern separatists start clashing.
5. Ukrainians are killing Ukrainians.
6. Who benefits?

Russia. Putin wants to have a controlled Ukraine. Whether it could be done by destabilizing it generally, partitioning it, dividing into federal principalities, installing a lenient regime, blackmailing through gas prices or all of them in various degrees.

[Kagemusha]

China and Iran, for the most part.

Interesting point of view and i agree for the short term, since West and Russia are still both betting their own horses in the race. And who benefits the least?

Russia. Putin wants to have a controlled Ukraine. Whether it could be done by destabilizing it generally, partitioning it, dividing into federal principalities, installing a lenient regime, blackmailing through gas prices or all of them in various degrees.

To me this is still early to say. I agree that for Russia it is far more essential to have a cooperative government in Ukraine, compared to West. Their actions speak loudly in behalf of that. They are willing to go far more to the distance for it, using pretty much most means available. Still it is too early to say what the end result will be, but the same question to you also: Who benefits the least and what could be done about it?

[Viking]

Details don't really matter in the end.

Maidan government started accepting volunteers from the west in the National Guard as army proved reluctant to fire on the citizens it was sworn to defend. Acting president has been calling for creation of local militia units, not subordinated to anyone, to fight the "terrorists".

Mess like this was bound to happen. In hindsight, Yanukovich acted like a nurse to protesters compared to what Maidan government is now doing.

Doesn't matter? Russia has annexed a part of Ukrainian territory and has it's army ready on the borders. The Maidan uprising was a purely domestic event compared to what's going on in the east. The situation Yanukovich faced was completely different.

Protesters in the east were almost immediately faced with army, paramilitary formations and heavy weaponry.

Protesters stormed buildings in the east at the same time that the Crimea crisis was still on. Perhaps earlier too, I don't remember that for sure.

The army was only sent in after men armed with automatic rifles started storming police stations and taking control over entire cities (!); weeks after buildings were stormed for the first time.

[Husar]

The situation is clear. Russian professional soldiers got to Krasnoarmeisk, pretending to be national guard of Ukraine, and started shooting in the air. Then the tape was cut, ketchup spilled on the asphalt and fake ambulance was called, taking away uninjured actor.

Actually, I think they do similar things in Palestine sometimes. There was an uncut video once where you could see the ambulance was just waiting for the guy to pretend he'd been shot and then it turned on the siren and rushed into the picture of what was later shown in the news.

[Sarmatian]

Interesting point of view and i agree for the short term, since West and Russia are still both betting their own horses in the race. And who benefits the least?

You mean besides Ukraine?

Russia and EU.

Iran benefited on a short term. As soon as the crisis is over, everything will most probably go back to how it was. China, on the other hand, is a long term winner.

The worse relations between EU and Russia, the cheaper energy they get. And they didn't lift a finger.
a

Doesn't matter?

Details don't matter. Whether they shot a person with the intent to kill and missed, whether they shot him in the leg to stop him or the bullet ricocheted of the pavement is pretty much for academic discussion. The fact that the government sent in the army and paramilitary units to fight its own citizens is the crux of the issue. If Yanukovich deserved a revolution for Berkut beating up the protesters, these guys deserve to be forced to listen to Justin Bieber until they die or lose their mind, whichever comes first.

[Kagemusha]

You mean besides Ukraine?

Nope. Ukraine is the answer i am looking for. Ukrainians have to choose themselves what path to take. If the Maidan government will not start negotiating with the Eastern protesters and try to create unity within Ukraine, all they are going to achieve is Ukraine becoming a stage of proxy war between Russia and West. Most likely in the end Russia is going to win that proxy war as it is far more committed to Ukraine compared to West. I think we can be certain that if the current policies will continue, there will be a civil war in Ukraine. West is going to support the Maidan government and Russia the Eastern protesters. This will only mean suffering for the Ukrainians.

It is up to Ukrainians to find unity. If they cant achieve that, they will only remain tools of other powers on their own expense and their own suffering. Maidan government simply cant occupy Eastern Ukraine, because Russia with lot more resources is willing to support the anti government elements in the area and there is nothing that the Maidan government can do to stop it. West is ready to support Maidan government enough to keep the conflict going, but West is not going to commit itself seriously as war with Russia over Ukraine is out of the question. The current military approach of the Maidan government is only playing to the hand of Russians as more force they use, more divided Ukraine will become.

[Viking]

Details don't matter. Whether they shot a person with the intent to kill and missed, whether they shot him in the leg to stop him or the bullet ricocheted of the pavement is pretty much for academic discussion. The fact that the government sent in the army and paramilitary units to fight its own citizens is the crux of the issue. If Yanukovich deserved a revolution for Berkut beating up the protesters, these guys deserve to be forced to listen to Justin Bieber until they die or lose their mind, whichever comes first.

a) It's not clear who these people were.
b) It's pretty clear from the video that they were not there to shoot people; if so they would be doing a pretty bad job.
c) Whether or not people were shot with intent makes all the difference. It tends to do so generally..
d) If the police cannot deal with the situation, there are not that many options left other than the military. Regular police are neither trained nor equipped to fight an insurgency.

fight its own citizens

If these citizens are declaring their own republic at gunpoint, the fact that they are citizens of the country seems slightly less relevant, for some reason.

[Brenus]

“So other videos and links in this thread are an update, mine are pseudo-news” You should notice I rarely post youtube video. I did once to illustrate not an even, but the fact that someone pretended that Ukrainian Nazi were not.
If you want to know why, it is because my research in History Degree was about manipulation of images and building of self-conscience.

“Employing snipers is what the doctor ordered.” Still no news about the sniper by the way?

“The Maidan uprising was a purely domestic event compared to what's going on in the east. The situation Yanukovich faced was completely different.” Agree. It started well and the push from the Nazi and Ultra-nationalists (as Gilrandir kindly remind us of their existence) turn a social movement is an ethnic movement. Putin decide to move on a threat (perceived or real) by the Russian Minorities. Instead to go and talk to them, the provisional government took decisions it shouldn’t, playing in Putin’s hands. Ukraine was not helped by western Media opposing “pro-Western” movement and “Pro-Russian” as it was not possible to have both.
I don’t think Putin wants Ukraine, he want to neutralise it, to have a buffer zone. And he got it. Who want Ukraine and its decaying Nuclear Power stations, its debts and so on? Not EU, it looks. USA could have interested in implanting some Advanced Forward Posts, but even that is not sure.

[Sarmatian]

Nope. Ukraine is the answer i am looking for. Ukrainians have to choose themselves what path to take. If the Maidan government will not start negotiating with the Eastern protesters and try to create unity within Ukraine, all they are going to achieve is Ukraine becoming a stage of proxy war between Russia and West. Most likely in the end Russia is going to win that proxy war as it is far more committed to Ukraine compared to West. I think we can be certain that if the current policies will continue, there will be a civil war in Ukraine. West is going to support the Maidan government and Russia the Eastern protesters. This will only mean suffering for the Ukrainians.

It is up to Ukrainians to find unity. If they cant achieve that, they will only remain tools of other powers on their own expense and their own suffering. Maidan government simply cant occupy Eastern Ukraine, because Russia with lot more resources is willing to support the anti government elements in the area and there is nothing that the Maidan government can do to stop it. West is ready to support Maidan government enough to keep the conflict going, but West is not going to commit itself seriously as war with Russia over Ukraine is out of the question. The current military approach of the Maidan government is only playing to the hand of Russians as more force they use, more divided Ukraine will become.

Russia can not really win. The best result for Russia is not to lose. That is partly the reason why Russia is committed much more than the West. West doesn't have anything to lose here.

The best scenario for Russia is Ukraine that stays out of NATO.

The problem with the Ukraine is that neither side, even Kiev, wants united Ukraine. I mean truly united, where each opinion counts equally. Kiev wants Ukraine united under a single opinion. Not long ago pro-Russian forces wanted Ukraine united under a single opinion. Now they've scaled down and would be willing to accept two separate opinions. Not out of sense of democracy, but out if inability to force their opinion, at the moment. And not in a true sense of unity, where two (or more) opinions exist for the entire country. It's a situation of "you have your opinion on your side, we'll have ours on our side".

It might be best to neuter both sides. Impotent central government would mean there's less incentive to fight over it. No foreign policy might finally rid the corrupt politicians of excuses why there isn't enough economic growth. Both pro-Russian and pro-Western side would be forced to solve real problems instead of accusing each other of treason.

After 20 or 30 years, who knows what's gonna happen? Maybe Russia will disintegrate. Maybe EU will. Maybe Russia will join EU. Maybe Ukraine will become a healthy country with a healthy economy and won't be such a pushover.

The problem is, I don't see anyone in Kiev with cojones to pull it off.

For clarification, when I say Kiev, I mean the current government.

[Kagemusha]

Russia can not really win. The best result for Russia is not to lose. That is partly the reason why Russia is committed much more than the West. West doesn't have anything to lose here.

The best scenario for Russia is Ukraine that stays out of NATO.

The problem with the Ukraine is that neither side, even Kiev, wants united Ukraine. I mean truly united, where each opinion counts equally. Kiev wants Ukraine united under a single opinion. Not long ago pro-Russian forces wanted Ukraine united under a single opinion. Now they've scaled down and would be willing to accept two separate opinions. Not out of sense of democracy, but out if inability to force their opinion, at the moment. And not in a true sense of unity, where two (or more) opinions exist for the entire country. It's a situation of "you have your opinion on your side, we'll have ours on our side".

It might be best to neuter both sides. Impotent central government would mean there's less incentive to fight over it. No foreign policy might finally rid the corrupt politicians of excuses why there isn't enough economic growth. Both pro-Russian and pro-Western side would be forced to solve real problems instead of accusing each other of treason.

After 20 or 30 years, who knows what's gonna happen? Maybe Russia will disintegrate. Maybe EU will. Maybe Russia will join EU. Maybe Ukraine will become a healthy country with a healthy economy and won't be such a pushover.

The problem is, I don't see anyone in Kiev with cojones to pull it off.

For clarification, when I say Kiev, I mean the current government.

I agree about Russia. I think ever since Russia took Crimea, their main point of interest have been undermining the Maidan government and to ensure in any possible way that the current government will not stay in power for long. That is the "victory" they are looking for. Not occupying Ukraine completely like some others tend to believe. Well i guess future will show how these things will unravel, but i can only feel sorry for the common Ukrainians because of the state of affairs in their country.

[Viking]

More and more evidence that pro-Ukrainian militias are getting involved.

Inside police HQ, Donbass Battalion fighters held police at gunpoint, then lectured them on duty to country, loyalty.

Now things have the potential to get really nasty in the east.

[Viking]

Interesting piece in NYT on Mariupol (and other cities):

MARIUPOL, Ukraine — In what could represent a decisive turning point in the Ukrainian conflict and a setback for Russia, thousands of steelworkers fanned out Thursday over the city of Mariupol, establishing control over the streets and routing the pro-Kremlin militants who seized control several weeks ago.

By late Thursday, miners and steelworkers had deployed in at least five cities, including the regional capital, Donetsk, though they had not yet become the dominant force there that they are in Mariupol, the region’s second largest city and the site just last week of bloody confrontations between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian militants,.

The workers are employees of Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine’s richest man and a recent convert to the side of Ukrainian unity, who on Wednesday issued a statement rejecting the separatist cause of the self-styled Donetsk People’s Republic but endorsing greater local autonomy. His decision to throw his weight fully behind the interim government in Kiev could inflict a body blow to the separatists, already reeling from Russian President Vladimir V. Putin’s withdrawal of full-throated support last week.

Things have BEEN nasty. People should post less propaganda videos in general, as I assure you all both sides will be pumping them out.

And they can still get a lot worse. I've been watching a lot of original amateur footage on YouTube. Not always easy to confirm its authenticity (cannot immediately confirm that it was actually shot in Ukraine, for starters), but a lot of it seems quite reliable.

[Gilrandir]

The fact that the government sent in the army and paramilitary units to fight its own citizens is the crux of the issue.

What the government has to do is to separate the dissident citizens who must be talked to from terrorists who shouldn't (which I believe was done in Mariupol). How can you shake hands and sit down at the table with those who rip up bellies of unarmed and tied up peaceful enough people (like that local deputy who tried to pull down the DPR flag) or shoot a whole family just because they refused to let their car be searched or rape a woman who is guilty of taking cigarettes to Ukrainian military? In fact, they don't want to be talked to, they just aggressively push on their cause by any means.

Still no news about the sniper by the way?

Not that I heard of, though I must admit this has slipped out of my focus of attention. But I guess it is not hard for one with intelligence to figure out who is guilty if we know that snipers were working from behind Berkut lines and were given commands by someone who coordinated their activities with those of Berkut.

“[B]It started well and the push from the Nazi and Ultra-nationalists (as Gilrandir kindly remind us of their existence) turn a social movement is an ethnic movement.

It was and is never considered ethnic.
I have an idea: let's have a quest game. The first assignment: find a post by Brenus (perhaps even posts, you can never tell) where there is no mentioning of nazis. Racists and fascists count as well. Sorry, can't come up with a prize. Suggestions?
Edit: I got it: the prize is gonna be a copy of Brenus' history degree paper with the autograph of the author.

[Brenus]

Deal. Err, no deal. Why should I pay to send a copy when it is YOUR quest. So once again, you want others to pay for your actions.

All ready got two (2260, 2239). So, do I sent myself a memoir of my DEA?

[Viking]

Agree. It started well and the push from the Nazi and Ultra-nationalists (as Gilrandir kindly remind us of their existence) turn a social movement is an ethnic movement.

Looks like the nazis helped putting someone who is rumoured to be of Jewish heritage in the position of PM, Arseniy Yatsenyuk:

He has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland.

Also looks like the nazis in the Kremlin are onto it already, and not just Yatsenyuk:

It all started with a Russian television “documentary” on former Ukrainian President Yulia Tymoshenko, aired on March 30. The film was a propaganda piece in the Soviet style – unrelenting character assassination with ominous, grating background music. Tymoshenko’s whole career, the narrator intoned, was one of embezzlement, criminality, back-stabbing of associates, and secretly ordering assaults and killings. Then, toward the end, the culminating “disclosure”: Tymoshenko was Jewish. “She completely hides her origin. But for many, it is no secret that the father of this woman with a hair-braid — Viktor Abramovich Kapitelman — has Jewish roots.”

The implication was that now, in light of that fact, her pattern of lies, theft and murder all made sense.

A few days earlier, the same documentary news program did a similar hatchet-job on Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatseniuk, and indulged in the rhetoric of the 1970s: Yatseniuk was not just a Jew, but a Zionist. “One must take into consideration his Jewish origin. He is a Jew on his mother’s side, and is one of the fifty most famous Zionists in Ukraine.” No wonder he was an enemy of Russia.

[Brenus]

Very convincing, especially after it was followed by "A mix of various types of Russians have entered Eastern Ukraine over the last month: specials forces, intelligence agents, and all kinds of political agitators and provocateurs.". Just the Title "the Real Truth" is a piece of information...

By the way "a Russian television" is a little bit vague, so linking it with the Kremlin is... a bit of stretch, a false news a la "Gilrandir".

"the nazis in the Kremlin": Hmmm... It looks like Gilrandir is not the only one who absolutely want the Russians as Nazi as well...

[Viking]

Very convincing, especially after it was followed by "A mix of various types of Russians have entered Eastern Ukraine over the last month: specials forces, intelligence agents, and all kinds of political agitators and provocateurs.". Just the Title "the Real Truth" is a piece of information...

By the way "a Russian television" is a little bit vague, so linking it with the Kremlin is... a bit of stretch, a false news a la "Gilrandir".

"the nazis in the Kremlin": Hmmm... It looks like Gilrandir is not the only one who absolutely want the Russians as Nazi as well...

Trying to follow your lead on dubious use of words and evidence. In the end, it becomes a battle over semantics.

Not in the Kremlin, but there are a lot of weird characters in the Russian parliament (according to this, he is actually the deputy speaker):

According to RT, Zhirinovsky ordered his aides to "rape" the reporter, then told her that pregnant women shouldn't be working. He also reportedly used several homophobic slurs.

As for neo-nazis in Russia, I don't suppose that's any secret.

[Brenus]

No, it is not, nor the fact that antisemitism is rift in Eastern Europe in general. Pogroms came from there. It is a plague very difficult to eradicate.
In general, all Parliaments have weird characters, elected on programs like Hunters, Fishers and Traditions (hunters-gatherers) or Fascist/Nazi Ideologies, most of time elected because voters are fed-up with the usual bi-partism.
Last election in France was a massive abstention (around 70%) which gave the FN the impression of success, when in fact, they lost grounds in term of number of voices (thing that Gilrandir didn't realise in his attack on Le Pen coming-up in 2nd, but there...).

My point is not about Russians being nice and polite, my point is in my knowledge, the only openly Nazi in government are in the actual Ukrainian one. And even according Gilrandir figures, they don't need to be in, as they represent around 10 % of the voters.

Once again, I am French, so my Political up-raising is one and indivisible. A Republic and democratic Political Pact, based not on Religions, territories, ethnicity or languages, but on a political agreement on values (roughly Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité), this due to the French construction of National Identity, self-representation and History.

So, it makes me laugh when I am portrayed as a Putin's supporter.

Have to go shopping, will be back

[Gilrandir]

Deal. Err, no deal. Why should I pay to send a copy when it is YOUR quest. So once again, you want others to pay for your actions.

It is Brenus all over: putting his own thoughts into others' minds and blaming them for having such thoughts. Who said anything about Brenus wasting his hard-earned do-re-mi? Put an autograph on the front page, scan it and send it together with the rest of the paper via e-mail. Now let's play Brenus in response: "Why should I pay for the ink of the autograph and electricity my anti-nazi scanner will consume?" (To make the search for a nazi-free post even harder.)

Very convincing, especially after it was followed by "A mix of various types of Russians have entered Eastern Ukraine over the last month: specials forces, intelligence agents, and all kinds of political agitators and provocateurs.". Just the Title "the Real Truth" is a piece of information...

By the way "a Russian television" is a little bit vague, so linking it with the Kremlin is... a bit of stretch, a false news a la "Gilrandir".

"the nazis in the Kremlin": Hmmm... It looks like Gilrandir is not the only one who absolutely want the Russians as Nazi as well...

Quest assignment 2: Find a post by Brenus where "Gilrandir" is not mentioned (starting with the moment the latter began making a nuisance of himself in this thread).
And a comment: Whose false news is it? I never claimed Russians were nazis. I said that there were nazis among Russians (as well as among other nations - Hungarians, Austrians). And I said that Russian nazis have something to do with the events in Eastern Ukraine. You have studied manipulation techniques not for naught.

And even according Gilrandir figures, they don't need to be in, as they represent around 10 % of the voters.

I feel proud. It is not Central Electoral Board, but me, myself and I who is responsible for the results of the previous elections in Ukraine. Figures are mine, MINE, my precioussss.

Have to go shopping, will be back

The latter sounds as a threat.
Let's run over Brenus' shopping list:
1. Nazi scum detector.
2. Nazi filth evaporator.
3. A detergent to clean hands in case nazi entrails defile them in process of nazi evaporation.
A reminder: if I see any nazi-turtiums on the way, stamp them out.

Looks like the nazis helped putting someone who is rumoured to be of Jewish heritage in the position of PM, Arseniy Yatsenyuk:

Tymoshenko's maiden name is Grygian, so it is easier to suspect her of Armenian roots. But it is definitely not disgusting enough for the author of the article.

[Beskar]

This is a tense issue for some people, but please try to refrain from attacking each other personally.

[Gilrandir]

This is a tense issue for some people, but please try to refrain from attacking each other personally.

[Brenus]

Personal attacks are just smoke screen when there is no more else to answer.
I don't mind that much. It is a little bit hurting when someone question my Scholarship and degree, and it is not the first time that it happened. Our Kurdish Friend did the same.
The rest of his intervention is of a school play-ground level and need the same level of attention.

Thanks anyway.

[GenosseGeneral]

Not in the Kremlin, but there are a lot of weird characters in the Russian parliament (according to this, he is actually the deputy speaker):

Zhirinowskiy is a clow; if you are up for a laugh, look for "Zhirinowskiy Bush" on Youtube. He also publicly sent a heavy armoured jeep to separatist militias in order to support them. They claim to have received the package.

However, the last days were not very good ones for the separatists. Akhmetov and his miners are now siding with the Ukrainian government, it seems as if they waited whether the referendum would lead to an invasion of Russian "peacekeepers" or not.
The separatist ultimatum to the government to withdraw its troops seems to have been an empty threat. Strelkov demanded just a couple of hours ago from the men of the Donbass to join the "Donbass Liberation Army". Seems like the support base is not broad enough for more than a guerrilla operation.
However, they still managed to free one of their leaders this morning when he was detained briefly at a borader checkpoint. They also continue to deploy heavy weaponry, including mortars, RPGs and heavier anti-tank rocket launchers, anti-material rifles, grenade launchers and some BMDs (presumably those taken from Ukrainian government forces about 2 weeks ago).
According to Strelkov's adress, they bought all that stuff from "black markets" or stole it from Ukrainian depots. I have my doubts…

[Brenus]

“Akhmetov and his miners are now siding with the Ukrainian government” Not what I heard this morning on BBC: apparently they succeeded to intervene between Police and Separatists in order to avoid confrontation, to make them talk to each other.
That could be an opportunity for dialogue and political understanding and negotiation.

[Gilrandir]

Personal attacks are just smoke screen when there is no more else to answer.
I don't mind that much. It is a little bit hurting when someone question my Scholarship and degree, and it is not the first time that it happened. Our Kurdish Friend did the same.
The rest of his intervention is of a school play-ground level and need the same level of attention.

Thanks anyway.

Almost from the very first post here I've experienced those personal attacks. What you call personal attacks on my side never happen out of the blue: they are a response to the venom I feel aimed at me. Again you play the same game: inventing the ideas and ascribing them to me. I don't question any degree. The only comment on it I made is that you seem to find a good practical application of the manipulation tactics you have studied. Do you deny it? You use the same vocabulary (agenda, intervention, even Gilrandir, Gilrandir's figures) you condemned so vehemently in the articles you branded as biased.
You are not tired of reiterating one and the same idea (how you hate Ukrainian nazis) contributing nothing of moment to the discussion, but when I draw everybody's attention to it you call it "a school play-ground level" (a very neutral vocabulary, by the way).
Unlike you, I readily admit my mistakes and don't feel bad about apologizing. I deem it to be the spirit of a civilized disussion and I see plenty of examples of it here. You never acknowledge your slips, and if I detect them (claiming that Svoboda has a third of seats in Verkhovna Rada) you pass them over in silence. The same was with the le Pen situation: you tried to explain what happened in 2007 by low turnover, general passivity of voters, great amount of candidates and so on. I don't challenge the explanation. But as Sarmatian (who you seem to agree with on most occasions) claims, the fact is that 65 million French citizens voted a nazi into the second round of presidential election. Period. According to him, the turnover, the number of votes that each candidate received, the margin between them don't matter. Go ahead and argue with him.

@ Tiaexz: I don't mind abiding by the laws of the forum, but I would dearly like to see the same attitude from others. I've seen here much worst things than the ones I'm charged with (like admissions of one making another sick) which were not condemned.

[Gilrandir]

“Akhmetov and his miners are now siding with the Ukrainian government” Not what I heard this morning on BBC: apparently they succeeded to intervene between Police and Separatists in order to avoid confrontation, to make them talk to each other.

To avoid confrontation it is, not to make them talk to each other. To start talking one has to find those who represent the sentiment of the majority of people of Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Kyiv is not going to talk either to terrorists in Slovyansk or members of DPR as they don't. The Party of Regions enjoys that no more. Perhaps the solution could be the oligarchs who have the employees of their enterprises at their command, the mayors of cities and towns of the regions and other respected and trusted citizens (university rectors, journalists, public figures).

[Brenus]

“Do you deny it?” Do I deny using speech tactic? No. It is part of debates.

“You use the same vocabulary (agenda, intervention, even Gilrandir, Gilrandir's figures”: Yes I do. In my opinion, you have all this. The figures are given by you, so I don’t see your point of contend here. As you are my opponent in this debate, I of course considered to your points and of course I will use them in my way.
I never attack you as a person, putting your intellectual or others capacities in doubts, never mocked you.
I disagree with you on your political view (and even not all of them) and what I considered as a bias, which I can understand as it is your country we spoke about, but this point doesn’t mean I have to accept it.

“I draw everybody's attention to it you call it "a school play-ground level"” That is because it is a major Political fact. You could have done it in a better way, e.g. “Brenus’ obsession of Ukrainian Nazi stop him to see (understand/ grasp/perceive) blab bla bla”.
But it is not up to me to give you tricks in debating.

“the fact is that 65 million French citizens voted a nazi into the second round of presidential election”: Right. I will explain you the twist I used: You are right on one point (except it not 65 millions of French voters, that would be the entire French Population, so Le Pen would have been elected with 100 % of the vote and it was the 1st round, so he got access to the 2nd round, where he was crushed, defeat confirmed in the next elections for Parliament: This is this kind of mistakes you have to avoid because whoever is your opponent will rush on them).
So I turned it against you (intellectual judo): A lot of French did vote for the FN, but at the Parliamentary elections they had no seats. So using the figures you gave (your Nazi having only 10 % of the vote –which, incidentally acknowledges my mistake) so less than in France, I turned it in question why do you have a need on them in your executive.