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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    two problems with this:

    1. No actual evidence being in the UK improves trade.

    2. The issue is not the trade regulations, it's the social policies.

    You're talking out of the side of your mouth, just the different side to the racists.
    I presume you mean being in the EU improves trade. Whatever you mean, IIRC the EU bloc is by some distance the biggest trade partner the UK has, and certainly the biggest we'll have without contributing massively to carbon emissions. On that basis, we'll need to have trade agreements of some kind with other EU countries, whether we're part of it or not. If we're part of the EU, we get a say. If we're not, we'll need to have those trade agreements anyway, but they'll push the rest of the package along without us having any say whatsoever (compare with what John Major did at Maastricht). If we don't like social regulations, we can, and have, leave out some of it without losing our say in the rest of the package. If we're in the EU.

    I prefer to have as little government in my life as possible. But I recognise there is need for it, and given a choice between big government and no government, big government wins out every time. Within a democracy, even in a representative one, I get to have some say should I care to do so. I prefer that to pretending to be out of it, but being affected by it anyway because I don't really live outside it. I respect those politicians who face this reality and don't try to dilute it for me. Whatever their failings, they face reality head on and try to cope with it as well as they can. I don't respect politicians who draw a divide between one or the other as though one of the choices is practical. It's not, and if they say so, they're either deluded and shouldn't be anywhere near anything that governs, or they're lying.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I presume you mean being in the EU improves trade. Whatever you mean, IIRC the EU bloc is by some distance the biggest trade partner the UK has, and certainly the biggest we'll have without contributing massively to carbon emissions. On that basis, we'll need to have trade agreements of some kind with other EU countries, whether we're part of it or not. If we're part of the EU, we get a say. If we're not, we'll need to have those trade agreements anyway, but they'll push the rest of the package along without us having any say whatsoever (compare with what John Major did at Maastricht). If we don't like social regulations, we can, and have, leave out some of it without losing our say in the rest of the package. If we're in the EU.
    Pretty much what I mentioned.

    On another revolutionary step, I will say this. Having the European Union not be democratically accountable and invested as what some of the critics say, actually helps British nationalistic interest, because within the current system, being basically one of the 'big three' Britain has a vastly disappropriate influence within the European Trading bloc which is why France didn't want Britain to join in the beginning because of the dominance. It is why talks such as Merkel and Cameron at Downing Street are as high profile as they are.

    So leaving the Union like some of the national sentiments want actually hinders and damages nationalistic self-interest compared to staying within the current status quo.

    Admittedly, that does mean that me, who is wanting a more democratic and accountable EU is in a position of eroding Britain's nationalistic self-interest, but then, I am not a nationalist.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-25-2014 at 00:44.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Pretty much what I mentioned.

    On another revolutionary step, I will say this. Having the European Union not be democratically accountable and invested as what some of the critics say, actually helps British nationalistic interest, because within the current system, being basically one of the 'big three' Britain has a vastly disappropriate influence within the European Trading bloc which is why France didn't want Britain to join in the beginning because of the dominance. It is why talks such as Merkel and Cameron at Downing Street are as high profile as they are.

    So leaving the Union like some of the national sentiments want actually hinders and damages nationalistic self-interest compared to staying within the current status quo.

    Admittedly, that does mean that me, who is wanting a more democratic and accountable EU is in a position of eroding Britain's nationalistic self-interest, but then, I am not a nationalist.
    As the polar opposites of EU integration and UKIP continue saying their piece, my respect for the underrated John Major grows.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    As the polar opposites of EU integration and UKIP continue saying their piece, my respect for the underrated John Major grows.
    I agree their position is a middle-ground of self-interest which makes 'sense' and has logic behind it. I might not agree with it personally, but it is easier to understand than the naivety in some of the other positions.

    I once called it the 'Furunculus Position', many years ago. Where you couldn't argue or fault the logic behind their position, you could only argue the ideology.

    Always a good position to debate against. It really tests your own arguments to put forward convincing cases.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-25-2014 at 01:44.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I presume you mean being in the EU improves trade. Whatever you mean, IIRC the EU bloc is by some distance the biggest trade partner the UK has, and certainly the biggest we'll have without contributing massively to carbon emissions. On that basis, we'll need to have trade agreements of some kind with other EU countries, whether we're part of it or not. If we're part of the EU, we get a say. If we're not, we'll need to have those trade agreements anyway, but they'll push the rest of the package along without us having any say whatsoever (compare with what John Major did at Maastricht). If we don't like social regulations, we can, and have, leave out some of it without losing our say in the rest of the package. If we're in the EU.

    I prefer to have as little government in my life as possible. But I recognise there is need for it, and given a choice between big government and no government, big government wins out every time. Within a democracy, even in a representative one, I get to have some say should I care to do so. I prefer that to pretending to be out of it, but being affected by it anyway because I don't really live outside it. I respect those politicians who face this reality and don't try to dilute it for me. Whatever their failings, they face reality head on and try to cope with it as well as they can. I don't respect politicians who draw a divide between one or the other as though one of the choices is practical. It's not, and if they say so, they're either deluded and shouldn't be anywhere near anything that governs, or they're lying.
    Yes, I did mean EU.

    You're correct that it's better to be within a trading Bloc than without it, in principle, but the U is no longer primarily a trading Bloc - it is being developed into a Federal State.

    That's not a bad thing, per se, but if you consider something like the EU Parliament, you have to consider that the people who elect the MEP's neither voted for the creation of the Body, nor did they vote on what powers it would have. The reason it was not put to a vote is that almost no one in any EU country would have voted in favour of more elected politicians.

    This is the core problem of the "democratic deficit" within the EU, and it applies to all countries prior to the most recent enlargement - where the former Eastern Bloc actually DID decide to join an EU Super-State. Even then, however, in many cases this was not put to a referendum so far as I can see.

    So, while trade is a major argument in favour of EU membership, it does speak to the arguments of Euroscepticism at all.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    So, while trade is a major argument in favour of EU membership, it does speak to the arguments of Euroscepticism at all.
    Many Euro Sceptics argue that the EU is stifling trade overburdening companies with regulation and that by leaving, Britain will lead in a new golden age of economic prosperity where including where companies do not have to apply such regulations and argue such regularly. It is a bold-faced lie.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-25-2014 at 15:12.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Many Euro Sceptics argue that the EU is stifling trade overburdening companies with regulation and that by leaving, Britain will lead in a new golden age of economic prosperity where including where companies do not have to apply such regulations and argue such regularly. It is a bold-faced lie.
    Well, not really.

    There are areas where our trade is stifled due to EU regs - the CAP and CFP are the most famous, but there's a general problem that, because we are part of the EU, our internal and external trade goods must ALL follow EU regs, regardless of where they go.

    The basic problem is that EU membership allows the extraction of British resources to the detriment of British business.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Well, not really.

    There are areas where our trade is stifled due to EU regs - the CAP and CFP are the most famous, but there's a general problem that, because we are part of the EU, our internal and external trade goods must ALL follow EU regs, regardless of where they go.

    The basic problem is that EU membership allows the extraction of British resources to the detriment of British business.
    Are we a self-sufficient island whose good British resources are being exploited by foreign slave masters? Or, when you say "extraction of British resources", do you mean trade, and the exchange of one set of resources for another? Because I'm fairly certain there are numerous vital resources we are dependent on that we ourselves do not produce.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Are we a self-sufficient island whose good British resources are being exploited by foreign slave masters? Or, when you say "extraction of British resources", do you mean trade, and the exchange of one set of resources for another? Because I'm fairly certain there are numerous vital resources we are dependent on that we ourselves do not produce.
    I refer primarily to the fact that we are a net contributor to the CAP, and France is not, and that the CFP allows the Spanish (who have fished out their own waters) to take our Cod, which endangers my Cod and Chips.

    I'm sure there are other examples.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I refer primarily to the fact that we are a net contributor to the CAP, and France is not, and that the CFP allows the Spanish (who have fished out their own waters) to take our Cod, which endangers my Cod and Chips.

    I'm sure there are other examples.
    From what I can find, the old Common Fisheries Policy was recognised as being problematic, and research and debate went into how it should be reformed, and reforms are due to begin this year. So what's the problem? That things weren't perfect from the start?

    As for net contribution to the CAP, according to this, in terms of overall budgets, as of 2011 we contributed less net (5.5bn) than Germany (9.0bn), France (6.4bn) and even Italy (5.9bn), while Poland, one of those whom we backed for accession into the EU, was the biggest net recipient (10.9bn). Would I be happier if we contributed less net? Yes I would, but I also recognise that many of the net recipients are in the EU as a result of British politicking. We've done our bit in contributing towards this situation, and judging from your stance on Ukraine, you'd be up for further expansion towards the east, which would result in yet another net recipient being added to the pool which we have to pay for.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The red Kipper flies at midnight!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Yes, I did mean EU.

    You're correct that it's better to be within a trading Bloc than without it, in principle, but the U is no longer primarily a trading Bloc - it is being developed into a Federal State.

    That's not a bad thing, per se, but if you consider something like the EU Parliament, you have to consider that the people who elect the MEP's neither voted for the creation of the Body, nor did they vote on what powers it would have. The reason it was not put to a vote is that almost no one in any EU country would have voted in favour of more elected politicians.

    This is the core problem of the "democratic deficit" within the EU, and it applies to all countries prior to the most recent enlargement - where the former Eastern Bloc actually DID decide to join an EU Super-State. Even then, however, in many cases this was not put to a referendum so far as I can see.

    So, while trade is a major argument in favour of EU membership, it does speak to the arguments of Euroscepticism at all.
    Welcome to the world of growing regulations. There are a number of areas in the British state that weren't specifically voted on either, but exist anyway because they were brought in to address certain issues at the time and have either been kept on, or they've not yet gone round to removing the dead wood (eg. have we beaten Napoleon yet?). Do you want to dissolve the British state?

    We in Britain have it better than most of the EU, in that thanks to Maastricht, we're not subject to some of the worse failures of the EU's growing state. We've been one of the biggest supporters of one of the biggest changes in the EU, namely its expansionism in terms of incorporating new member countries. It remains to be seen whether that was a good thing or not, but it can hardly be disputed that it was our thing, so it's not as though we've been helpless in the face of EU decision making from afar. France and Germany have won the argument on some issues, and somehow we've managed to wheedle our way out of most of its effects (thankfully). We've won the argument on some issues, and your beloved UKIP still manages to blame the EU for that rather than own up to what we've done. Win some, lose some, that's the grown up world for you. But you're not happy unless you win on every argument in the exact way that you want, in hindsight.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 05-25-2014 at 16:24.

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