Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Viking]

Some people in the video speak Russian with a pronounced Caucasian accent: they are either Chechens or Ossetians.

CNN more or less confirms that there are Chechens among the separatist militants:

On the back of some of the trucks were armed men who appeared to be Chechen. Two told a CNN team they were from the Chechen capital, Grozny, and one indicated that he was formerly a policemen in Chechnya and was in Donetsk to serve the Russian Federation.

The men, who as Chechens are Russian citizens, said they were there as "volunteers." But if their accounts were true, their presence in Donetsk would appear to indicate some kind of acquiescence by the Russian government at the least.

[Gilrandir]

CNN more or less confirms that there are Chechens among the separatist militants:

I saw a video in which Ponomarev speaks to the people of Slovyansk assembled on a square or on a street. He is exasperated and dissatisfied with the locals and says that his "friends" who came from Russia, Belarus, Moldova and the Caucasus are more ready to fight Ukrainian army than they. To me, the presence of mercenaries from Russia (especially the Caucasus) and Crimea in Donbas is a proven fact.

[Pannonian]

I saw a video in which Ponomarev speaks to the people of Slovyansk assembled on a square or on a street. He is exasperated and dissatisfied with the locals and says that his "friends" who came from Russia, Belarus, Moldova and the Caucasus are more ready to fight Ukrainian army than they. To me, the presence of mercenaries from Russia (especially the Caucasus) and Crimea in Donbas is a proven fact.

Does this mean that you don't think of Crimea as Ukrainian any more?

[Gilrandir]

Does this mean that you don't think of Crimea as Ukrainian any more?

You should read more carefully: I wrote Russia AND Crimea, so it means that Crimea is different from Russia. In fact it is held by Russia, so physically it is Russia. But not so legally, legitimately and so on.
Mercenaries are trained (and also hired) there and then transported to Donbas. Plus Ukrainian border guards reported attempted breakthroughs from Russia: several Kamaz trucks, vans and cars carrying men and arms tried to cross the border with Lugansk region. Ukrainian foreign ministry officially protested to Russia. Very often the breakthroughs are supported by shooting from across the border. Sometimes the border guards repulse them, sometimes they manage to eventually breakthrough. Until the military closes ratholes in the border terrorists will be getting support from Russia AND Crimea.

[Gilrandir]

I heard that in France nazis obtained 25% votes at the Europarliament elections in fact winning them. Now will Brenus try to justify that by turnout, excess of candidates or anything else? Let's face the stark truth: the germ of nazism has taken root in rich and peaceful French soil and gives fruit now and then (2007, 2014, ...?).
And speaking of elections in Ukraine: they (both presidential and local) proved the fact I tried to get people pay attention to - South-eastern Ukraine is no more. I mean as an area of predominately Russian-speaking populace having a similar Russia-oriented sentiment and mindset, being at odds with the rest of the country and ready to sail away Russiawards if anything extraordinary happens. Well, perhaps, I should put it differently (since the mindset is not changed in a month or two): such South-eastern Ukraine never was. Like I have said: there are regional differences and peculiarities in Ukraine (as in many other countries), but there is no sense to speak of a "deeply divided nation", as some here do. The events show, that the "monolith" Southeast in fact is a collection of communities which differ from each other in many things and (significantly) in loyalty to Ukraine. There are regions with strong loyalty (Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhya, Kherson and Mykolayiv), moderate loyalty (Odesa and Kharkiv) and divided loyalty (Donetsk and Lugansk). Once again my conlusion is corroborated: Russian-speaking doesn't mean anxious to join Russia.

[Brenus]

"the germ of nazism has taken root in rich and peaceful French soil and gives fruit now and then (2007, 2014, ...?)." Yeah, but you are the country with openly Nazi in your executive.

[Pannonian]

You should read more carefully: I wrote Russia AND Crimea, so it means that Crimea is different from Russia. In fact it is held by Russia, so physically it is Russia. But not so legally, legitimately and so on.
Mercenaries are trained (and also hired) there and then transported to Donbas. Plus Ukrainian border guards reported attempted breakthroughs from Russia: several Kamaz trucks, vans and cars carrying men and arms tried to cross the border with Lugansk region. Ukrainian foreign ministry officially protested to Russia. Very often the breakthroughs are supported by shooting from across the border. Sometimes the border guards repulse them, sometimes they manage to eventually breakthrough. Until the military closes ratholes in the border terrorists will be getting support from Russia AND Crimea.

Surely any Crimeans protesting in Donbas are merely Ukrainians legitimately making their opinion known about the Ukrainian government, just as you lot did at Maidan. Or were all the Maidanistas native Kievans, who weren't shipped in from other parts of Ukraine, unlike these Crimeans at Donbas?

[Gilrandir]

"the germ of nazism has taken root in rich and peaceful French soil and gives fruit now and then (2007, 2014, ...?)." Yeah, but you are the country with openly Nazi in your executive.

As much as Hungary and Austria. But this is something finally. I'm satisfied with the "yeah". It is the first open admission of the fact that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

Surely any Crimeans protesting in Donbas are merely Ukrainians legitimately making their opinion known about the Ukrainian government, just as you lot did at Maidan. Or were all the Maidanistas native Kievans, who weren't shipped in from other parts of Ukraine, unlike these Crimeans at Donbas?

Protesting is the right word for what they are doing in Donbas. Most of the Crimeans are the local Berkut, Alfa and other spetznaz detachments. So they just go on with what they started at Maidan.

[Viking]

From interviewed Chechen militants:

"Our president [Ramzan Kadyrov] gave the order. They called us and we came,” 33-year-old Zelimhan tells VICE News. The bearded fighter, a member of a unit known as the “Wild Division,” says he arrived a week ago with 34 Chechen men who volunteered to come and support their “brothers” in the People’s Republic of Donetsk.

The journey from their native Chechnya via Rostov to Donetsk was equally straightforward, Sayid, one of the Wild Division’s fighters told VICE News. The Chechen unit tells VICE News they are fighting alongside 16 “brothers” from Ossetia, who have been on site for around two months.

If the Ossetians actually have been there for 2 months, they could have played an important role in the early stages of the insurgency.

Starting to see a certain narrative building..

[Brenus]

"It is the first open admission of the fact that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"." You obviously don't read all what I wrote. And 25 % of 45 % of the voter is.... 10 % of the total, which is roughly what the extreme Right historically does in France... And this is historical fact.

[Viking]

Surely any Crimeans protesting in Donbas are merely Ukrainians legitimately making their opinion known about the Ukrainian government, just as you lot did at Maidan. Or were all the Maidanistas native Kievans, who weren't shipped in from other parts of Ukraine, unlike these Crimeans at Donbas?

I don't see why it should matter that not everyone at Maidan was from Kyiv. They weren't trying to get rid of the city council of Kyiv, but the country's government. Anyone from outside Donbass fighting for separatism there are claiming to fight on the behalf of people other than themselves; namely the local population.

[Gilrandir]

If the Ossetians actually have been there for 2 months, they could have played an important role in the early stages of the insurgency.

I saw an interview of a Donetsk journalist who is well aware of what is going on among terrorists. He said that the number of locals among them is about 15%, they are now (unlike in the first days of the set-to) turned down when they come to participate. They are considered to be untrained and inexperienced so even if anyone is accepted he is usuallly given an assignment at one of the checkpoints far from the clash zone. Professional mercenaries are taking over. One more proof of it is what happened in Donetsk: battalion "Vostok" consisting of ex-poicemen and spetznaz tore down barricades in the downtown and tried to evict (I don't know how successful the attempt was) the representatives of DPR from administrative buildings on the pretext that they are only engaged in drinking, kidnapping and marauding contributing nothing to fighting and thus discrediting the separatist movement. That is why more and more locals voice their dissatisfaction with DPR.
http://news.bigmir.net/ukraine/81956...mareva--video-
In the video an aged lady in Slovyansk defends Ponomarev claiming that he neither eats nor sleeps protecting them. A man opposes her saying that separatists place their missiles in a bedroom district and often start shooting at will without warning anyone (often hitting houses) so his wife with the baby in her arms had to find cover in a nearby cellar.

"It is the first open admission of the fact that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"." You obviously don't read all what I wrote. And 25 % of 45 % of the voter is.... 10 % of the total, which is roughly what the extreme Right historically does in France... And this is historical fact.

Your figure-juggling can't change the fact: a quarter of places in Europarliament from France will belong to nazis. 10% support is what Svoboda got and it terrified you extremely, while the French nazi 10% is just a historical fact. If the turnout keeps at 45% (as you claim) then we may see them in the French bodies of power. By the way, the total support of Yarosh+Tyagnybok (about 2%) at the presidential elections equalled the one of Vadim Rabinovich - a jewish businessman. Now whose nation is in danger of nazi advent?

[Pannonian]

I don't see why it should matter that not everyone at Maidan was from Kyiv. They weren't trying to get rid of the city council of Kyiv, but the country's government. Anyone from outside Donbass fighting for separatism there are claiming to fight on the behalf of people other than themselves; namely the local population.

Gilrandir wasn't happy that there were Crimeans at Donbas, classing them with Russians as "mercenaries". This means that, in his eyes, Crimeans aren't legitimate protesters in Donbas.

[Brenus]

“Your figure-juggling can't change the fact: a quarter of places in Europarliament from France will belong to nazis. 10% support is what Svoboda got and it terrified you extremely, while the French nazi 10% is just a historical fact. If the turnout keeps at 45% (as you claim) then we may see them in the French bodies of power. By the way, the total support of Yarosh+Tyagnybok (about 2%) at the presidential elections equalled the one of Vadim Rabinovich - a jewish businessman. Now whose nation is in danger of nazi advent?” Yours, as you fail to see that they ARE in power.
And we speak of history, 2 years ago, without the sex-scandal in New-York, the French were near to elect a Jew as President of the Republic...
And what is the link between what happened in France and the situation on Ukraine? You can try again, you are just a smoke screen user...

[Viking]

This means that, in his eyes, Crimeans aren't legitimate protesters in Donbas.

Neither would Kyivans be.

[Sarmatian]

Neither would Kyivans be.

Not all of Donbas, or eastern and southeastern Ukraine, wishes separation. 30% at most. In a poll conducted earlier this month, iirc, about 80% of the population are for some kind of change, whether it is federalization, more regional autonomy, independence or joining Russia. Only less than 20% supports status quo.

Kiev doesn't see the forest from the trees. They ignored the silent majority and chose to deal only with militants. Using medical jargon, they treat the symptoms instead of the disease.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Gilrandir wasn't happy that there were Crimeans at Donbas, classing them with Russians as "mercenaries". This means that, in his eyes, Crimeans aren't legitimate protesters in Donbas.

Well - given that they apparently consider themselves Russians, maybe they aren't.

I don't like the words coming out of this new President's mouth one bit, but the transformation of armed protesters into insurrectionists, and the failure of the provisional government's attempts at dialogue, made this outcome inevitable.

I recall a lecture I attended given by Gen. Sir Rupert Smith on insurrections where he said you need about 15% support of the whole thing falls apart - that's tacit rather than active material support. This does make the DPR etc look like a terrorist insurrection - though the extent of the terror was debatable.

Irony, of course, is that moderate Russian speakers will get nothing regardless of whether Kiev or Moscow wins - the insurrection has made sure of that.

[Viking]

Not all of Donbas, or eastern and southeastern Ukraine, wishes separation. 30% at most. In a poll conducted earlier this month, iirc, about 80% of the population are for some kind of change, whether it is federalization, more regional autonomy, independence or joining Russia. Only less than 20% supports status quo.

Kiev doesn't see the forest from the trees. They ignored the silent majority and chose to deal only with militants. Using medical jargon, they treat the symptoms instead of the disease.

What's going on in Ukraine is for me another excellent example on the dangers of multiculturalism: have more than one national identity larger than a certain size in a country, and the social fabric is likely to start to unravel when things turn for the worse. It's also a weakness for outside powers to exploit.

[Gilrandir]

Yours, as you fail to see that they ARE in power.

Keep your eyes shut to the tendency and keep coming to the elections the way you are and we will see.

And what is the link between what happened in France and the situation on Ukraine?

I drew attention to France to once again expose the truth of the proverb: we see a mote in our brother's eye and don't see a beam in our own.

You can try again, you are just a smoke screen user...

Let me quote Sarmatian: attack the arguments, not the person. You keep doing the latter which you resented so much when you suspected it aimed at you.

[Gilrandir]

What's going on in Ukraine is for me another excellent example on the dangers of multiculturalism: have more than one national identity larger than a certain size in a country, and the social fabric is likely to start to unravel when things turn for the worse. It's also a weakness for outside powers to exploit.

Now you are in for all kinds of accusations including those of fascism, nazism (possibly racism) and bigotry. Enter Brenus.

[Gilrandir]

Gilrandir wasn't happy that there were Crimeans at Donbas, classing them with Russians as "mercenaries". This means that, in his eyes, Crimeans aren't legitimate protesters in Donbas.

De facto Crimea is Russia now. How do you class people coming from another country to raise hell across the border?

[Husar]

Now you are in for all kinds of accusations including those of fascism, nazism (possibly racism) and bigotry. Enter Brenus.

No, just the question since when cultures equal national identities?

[Viking]

No, just the question since when cultures equal national identities?

There is no strict equivalence, but the two are very closely related. I used the word 'national identity' since saying that there is a different culture in Eastern Ukraine than in Western Ukraine might not fit that well with all of the more common concepts and definitions of 'culture'. That's largely semantics.

[Husar]

There is no strict equivalence, but the two are very closely related. I used the word 'national identity' since saying that there is a different culture in Eastern Ukraine than in Western Ukraine might not fit that well with all of the more common concepts and definitions of 'culture'. That's largely semantics.

So was/is Ukraine a multicultural country? And if not, why bring up multiculturalism as a problem that Ukraine is a good example for?
You wouldn't say that eastern ukraine has a different culture, but a different national identity and since culture and national identity are so related, Ukraine is a good example against multiculturalism even though you wouldn't say it has different cultures?

[Brenus]

“I drew attention to France to once again expose the truth of the proverb: we see a mote in our brother's eye and don't see a beam in our own.” Nope. You try to divert attention that you have Nazi in your Government. Not in the French Government, in yours. Actually there are 2 members of the FN in the French Parliament (elected 2 years ago). As elections will go, perhaps you didn’t notice, but European Elections are not seen (unfortunately) as important in France, more like a free warning to the people in charge.
It might be a problem of Nazism in France in a near future, there is one actually in Ukrainian one, not in the future, right now…

“attack the arguments, not the person”: That is not a personal attack, that is a description of a diversion tactic you employ persistently. Trying to divert attention on unrelated subject in order to hind uneasy facts, so smokes screen. Where is the attack on the person here?

[Gilrandir]

So was/is Ukraine a multicultural country? And if not, why bring up multiculturalism as a problem that Ukraine is a good example for?
You wouldn't say that eastern ukraine has a different culture, but a different national identity and since culture and national identity are so related, Ukraine is a good example against multiculturalism even though you wouldn't say it has different cultures?

There are no different cultures. There are regional differences in Ukrainian culture (same as I believe in Gemany's Bundesländer). Again you are making the same mistake as Sarmatian when he spoke of a deeply divided Ukrainian nation. But of course the question is what a culture comprises: holidays, traditions, literature, movies, history, art?

[Gilrandir]

“attack the arguments, not the person”: That is not a personal attack, that is a description of a diversion tactic you employ persistently. Trying to divert attention on unrelated subject in order to hind uneasy facts, so smokes screen. Where is the attack on the person here?

When you use a noun ("smoke-screen user") it is to name a person not tactics. And I believe this discussion to be an acquisitive and ramifying thing so a subject broached may be developed further on and the discussion unexpectedly drift elsewhere. The subject in question here was the danger of nazis coming to power. I don't see why we should limit the talk to one country, so if I see any similarities I underscore them. Would you call an earlier argument about the similarity (or dissimilarity) of annexing Crimea and Anschluss of Austria an unrelated discussion aimed to divert attention from what was (and is) going on in Ukraine?
And I don't "hind" (is it hide or hinder?) anything, since all the facts you refer to persistently are generally known and universally acknowledged.

[Viking]

So was/is Ukraine a multicultural country? And if not, why bring up multiculturalism as a problem that Ukraine is a good example for?
You wouldn't say that eastern ukraine has a different culture, but a different national identity and since culture and national identity are so related, Ukraine is a good example against multiculturalism even though you wouldn't say it has different cultures?

Again, that's a matter of semantics. One could say that culture is a subset of group identity, and that multiculturalism likewise is a subset of plurality in group identities. Then culture is not the problem, but group identities. This might be more accurate than getting stuck with the concept of 'culture'.

Alternatively, the concept of 'culture' is interpreted more liberally and broadly; such that you'd find different cultures in more or less every country on Earth (e.g. when you travel from one city to another, you find a new culture). With this definition, however, multiculturalism is only realistically likely to become a source of trouble when the cultures are distinct enough. With more conservative and rigid definitions of 'culture', cultures are distinct enough per definition to be able cause this kind of trouble.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...How do you class people coming from another country to raise hell across the border?

As English "footie" fans...


Just sayin.'

[Husar]

There are no different cultures. There are regional differences in Ukrainian culture (same as I believe in Gemany's Bundesländer). Again you are making the same mistake as Sarmatian when he spoke of a deeply divided Ukrainian nation. But of course the question is what a culture comprises: holidays, traditions, literature, movies, history, art?

Again, that's a matter of semantics. One could say that culture is a subset of group identity, and that multiculturalism likewise is a subset of plurality in group identities. Then culture is not the problem, but group identities. This might be more accurate than getting stuck with the concept of 'culture'.

Alternatively, the concept of 'culture' is interpreted more liberally and broadly; such that you'd find different cultures in more or less every country on Earth (e.g. when you travel from one city to another, you find a new culture). With this definition, however, multiculturalism is only realistically likely to become a source of trouble when the cultures are distinct enough. With more conservative and rigid definitions of 'culture', cultures are distinct enough per definition to be able cause this kind of trouble.

And then how is the situation in Ukraine a good example for the problems of multiculturalism?