Ukraine-in-a-thread

[Brenus]

“The subject in question here was the danger of nazis coming to power”: No. The subject is Ukraine having Nazi in position of Power. You can open a discussion on this subject if you wish, but on this one, we speak of why the Russian Minorities might have a good reason to be scared by a coup that brought Nazi in Power.

“When you use a noun ("smoke-screen user") it is to name a person not tactics” Err, so a driver is to name a person, not an actual user of car…? When I say you are a smoke-screen user, I describe actions you use in order to divert attention on fact you want to avoid to answer. When using a car, you become a driver.

“I don't see why we should limit the talk to one country” Well, no reason at all. No relation with the subject, I can as well open a discussion about the influence of the moon on the separatists minds, or Putin being a Satanist, or your actual President being related with Vlad Tepes… Be free.

“you refer to persistently are generally known and universally acknowledged.” Good, so you acknowledge you have open Nazi in the actual Ukrainian executive. We are progressing; you were telling us they were (only) extreme Nationalists.

[Viking]

And then how is the situation in Ukraine a good example for the problems of multiculturalism?

It's a spectrum. Whether you want to call the differences in the east and west as differences in culture or differences in identity - or whatever you want to call them - the mechanisms involved are exactly the same. Culture or group identity - it's semantics.

[Husar]

It's a spectrum. Whether you want to call the differences in the east and west as differences in culture or differences in identity - or whatever you want to call them - the mechanisms involved are exactly the same. Culture or group identity - it's semantics.

So you're saying the difference in group identity between West and East Ukraine is as big as the group identity difference between Norwegians and Kongolese? Gilrandir on the other hand says it's more like Saxonians and Bavarians, so why don't we have Bavarian separatists trying to join Austria? Or is that only to be expected once we start to complain about our government?

[Viking]

So you're saying the difference in group identity between West and East Ukraine is as big as the group identity difference between Norwegians and Kongolese? Gilrandir on the other hand says it's more like Saxonians and Bavarians, so why don't we have Bavarian separatists trying to join Austria? Or is that only to be expected once we start to complain about our government?

I don't know enough about neither Germany nor Ukraine to go into in-depth comparisons. Cultural differences do of course not automatically lead to chaos; that's absurd.

As I said, it takes certain circumstances to turn it into something messy. I can imagine that it's more likely to happen in a poorer country than a richer country, as "joining your own kind" can be seen as a tempting solution to the hardship. The state of integration with the rest of the country should also be important.

If a neighbouring country sends in agitators, like Russia with Ukraine, then such conditions can both be artificially created and enhanced.

[Fisherking]

So you're saying the difference in group identity between West and East Ukraine is as big as the group identity difference between Norwegians and Kongolese? Gilrandir on the other hand says it's more like Saxonians and Bavarians, so why don't we have Bavarian separatists trying to join Austria? Or is that only to be expected once we start to complain about our government?

Because Bavarians are waiting for Austria to join them. They are pretty sure they can leave when ever they want, they just worry that the rest would be lost without them.

Just ask them.

Besides, you need very little difference in groups to bring on conflicts. Look at sporting matches.

It may be childish but it is basic human nature.

[Pannonian]

De facto Crimea is Russia now. How do you class people coming from another country to raise hell across the border?

That's why I asked you, do you not think of Crimea as Ukrainian any more? To which you backtracked and denied they were other than Ukrainian. Until PVC pointed out that Crimea are legally not Ukrainian now, on which you came back with this. Which just illustrates my point. That you, thinking of yourself as Ukrainian, and Crimeans, thinking of themselves as Russians, class each other as different nationalities. So why were there arguments about the legitimacy of Crimea splitting away? You clearly didn't think you belonged to the same country.

[Husar]

I don't know enough about neither Germany nor Ukraine to go into in-depth comparisons. Cultural differences do of course not automatically lead to chaos; that's absurd.

As I said, it takes certain circumstances to turn it into something messy. I can imagine that it's more likely to happen in a poorer country than a richer country, as "joining your own kind" can be seen as a tempting solution to the hardship. The state of integration with the rest of the country should also be important.

If a neighbouring country sends in agitators, like Russia with Ukraine, then such conditions can both be artificially created and enhanced.

And that's an argument against multiculturalism how?
Who is more dangerous? The independent kingdom of bavaria separatists that get supported by Austrian soldiers who removed the insignia from their uniforms or the new Turkish Caliphate separatists who are supported by turkish airstrikes? When can I expect either or is there maybe no connection between the situation in Ukraine and multiculturalism in general?

Because Bavarians are waiting for Austria to join them. They are pretty sure they can leave when ever they want, they just worry that the rest would be lost without them.

Just ask them.

I know, they are our Texas. But they forget all the other Germans who work there and keep their industry running. Munich is a melting pot and a few farmers do not make a country.

Besides, you need very little difference in groups to bring on conflicts. Look at sporting matches.

It may be childish but it is basic human nature.

I'm not denying that, I'm saying Ukraine is not a good example for why multiculturalism is bad. Germany would be just as good an example for how it works and makes the country stronger. Which does not mean that we have perfected integration, but we don't have the aformentioned caliphatist separatists yet either.

[Strike For The South]

It's May 31st and Putin is still a fascist shit bag

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And that's an argument against multiculturalism how?
Who is more dangerous? The independent kingdom of bavaria separatists that get supported by Austrian soldiers who removed the insignia from their uniforms or the new Turkish Caliphate separatists who are supported by turkish airstrikes? When can I expect either or is there maybe no connection between the situation in Ukraine and multiculturalism in general?



I know, they are our Texas. But they forget all the other Germans who work their and keep their industry running. Munich is a melting pot and a few farmers do not make a country.



I'm not denying that, I'm saying Ukraine is not a good example for why multiculturalism is bad. Germany would be just as good an example for how it works and makes the country stronger. Which does not mean that we have perfected integration, but we don't have the aformentioned caliphatist separatists yet either.

Sorry...

You're telling me not all Germans are the same?

Eh?

Naaaah.

[Gilrandir]

we speak of why the Russian Minorities might have a good reason to be scared by a coup that brought Nazi in Power.

It has been three months of the interrim government in power. I would like you to name practical steps of this government which can serve a good example why one shouldn't have nazis at power. Any nazi symbols adopted as the state ones? Any nazi salutations used at official ceremonies? Any Russian speakers executed for speaking Russian? Any ethnic-cleansing, jew-hunting, gypsy-murdering, land-grabbing or whatever you might expect from such scum? I don't see why Russian minorities (as you call them) might be scared of, say, the minister of agriculture from Svoboda. Is he trying to make farmers plant potatoes in the shape of swastika? Is it forbidden to speak Russian while milking cows? Are depredator insects branded as Jewish?
The current government is guilty of many things but I don't see how those things can be explained from the perspective you wish to adopt.

“When you use a noun ("smoke-screen user") it is to name a person not tactics” Err, so a driver is to name a person, not an actual user of car…? When I say you are a smoke-screen user, I describe actions you use in order to divert attention on fact you want to avoid to answer. When using a car, you become a driver.

Driver is a person who drives a car. If, for example, you are asked who was to blame in the accident - the driver or the pedestrian - and you say "the driver", don't you name a person?

“you refer to persistently are generally known and universally acknowledged.” Good, so you acknowledge you have open Nazi in the actual Ukrainian executive. We are progressing; you were telling us they were (only) extreme Nationalists.

I acknowledge having the representatives of Svoboda in the government. How to name them is a matter of semantics.

why don't we have Bavarian separatists trying to join Austria?

When Austria has a Kanzler called Putinhalter or Putingruber (or what is a typical Austrian last name) expect the trouble to brew.

So why were there arguments about the legitimacy of Crimea splitting away? You clearly didn't think you belonged to the same country.

What one thinks has nothing to do with the legitimacy of a chunk of a counrty changing its affiliation. Why, Belgium is split (linguistically, culturally, historically) in two almost equal parts yet they keep living together. The same was with Ukraine and Crimea.

[Husar]

When Austria has a Kanzler called Putinhalter or Putingruber (or what is a typical Austrian last name) expect the trouble to brew.

You mean after the Saxonians toppled the democratically elected chancellor who wanted the Anschluss with Austria in order to install a guy who instead asked to join the USSR instead?

What one thinks has nothing to do with the legitimacy of a chunk of a counrty changing its affiliation. Why, Belgium is split (linguistically, culturally, historically) in two almost equal parts yet they keep living together. The same was with Ukraine and Crimea.

Only because Stalin saved them. The Swiss also have four different languages, all of which are official languages. What they don't have is the pro-this, pro-that movement problem because they are mostly pro-Switzerland. Belgium actually has such problems from time to time or even all the time, they just don't topple governments over it.

[Gilrandir]

You mean after the Saxonians toppled the democratically elected chancellor who wanted the Anschluss with Austria in order to install a guy who instead asked to join the USSR instead?

At one of the round tables held a month ago, Kravchuk and Kuchma, the ex-presidents of Ukraine, shared their experience on handling problems similar to what Ukraine is having now. They claimed that in the 1990s they had faced situations fraught with no less danger (Transdniestria war when a whole Russian army was marching through Ukraine and Crimea's attempt of cessation in 1994). But what made the peaceful (for Ukraine) solution possible is the position taken by Yeltsin. He said that whatever happened in Ukraine was to be solved within the country without any interference from Russia. Putin is evidently of a different mind. Trucks with men and arms still keep breaking through the border into Lugansk region. Until that stops (or is stopped) the situation is unlikely to wind up.

Only because Stalin saved them. The Swiss also have four different languages, all of which are official languages. What they don't have is the pro-this, pro-that movement problem because they are mostly pro-Switzerland. Belgium actually has such problems from time to time or even all the time, they just don't topple governments over it.

Under Stalin Crimea was a part of Russia. And Yanukovych was toppled for different reasons, we have had this out.

[Brenus]

“I would like you to name practical steps of this government which can serve a good example why one shouldn't have nazis at power.” Not the point. The point is they are Nazi. Hitler gave jobs to Germans. The price to pay was segregation, pogroms followed by extermination. But I give you it didn't happened in the first 3 months.

“Any ethnic-cleansing, jew-hunting, gypsy-murdering, land-grabbing or whatever you might expect from such scum?” You mean like using attack helicopters on rioting populaces, or trying to ban a Political Party after spreading rumours?

“I don't see why Russian minorities (as you call them) might be scared of” Well, a good start is to try to understand, and if you can’t, ask them.

“don't you name a person” and… that makes it a personal attack? So, yes, I recognised you as a person when I write you are a smoke-screen user. So?

“matter of semantics.” Matter of politic and perception of it.

[Husar]

Crimea's attempt of cessation in 1994

So this isn't even a new issue, and yet we were told it's all about Russia scaring the Crimeans into cessation rather than the Crimeans wanting it.

But what made the peaceful (for Ukraine) solution possible is the position taken by Yeltsin. He said that whatever happened in Ukraine was to be solved within the country without any interference from Russia.

Didn't Yeltsin also let Russia fall into corruption and bankruptcy so deep that the Russian people elected the strongman Putin to clean up the mess?
As for influencing other countries, ask Greece about foreign influence or maybe Austria about electing Heider. The EU that is now trumpeted as the savior of Ukraine also forces countries to abide by its will. The methods may be different but all the UKIP voters can tell you that the EU is much worse than Putin.

[Viking]

And that's an argument against multiculturalism how?
Who is more dangerous? The independent kingdom of bavaria separatists that get supported by Austrian soldiers who removed the insignia from their uniforms or the new Turkish Caliphate separatists who are supported by turkish airstrikes? When can I expect either or is there maybe no connection between the situation in Ukraine and multiculturalism in general?

I have already given you examples of such conditions. If Bavaria drifts away culturally from Germany with Austria, then at some point Bavarians and Austrians might seriously suggest that they should join each other.

If ethnic Turks become the majority in almost every city and town in a sizeable area of Germany, they may at some point ask for federalisation or secession for their area.

If multiculturalism means that one part of the neighbourhood is occupied by one culture and another part by another culture, then the friction it causes will stay within the neighbourhood.

If multiculturalism means that one part of the city is occupied by one culture and another part by another culture, then the friction it causes will stay within the city.

If multiculturalism means that one part of the country is occupied by one culture and another part by another culture, then the friction it causes will be at a national level, and can during the right circumstances lead to separatism and nasty things for the whole country.

[Gilrandir]

“Any ethnic-cleansing, jew-hunting, gypsy-murdering, land-grabbing or whatever you might expect from such scum?” You mean like using attack helicopters on rioting populaces, or trying to ban a Political Party after spreading rumours?

The reason why "rioting populaces" are still there is that the government doesn't want to use anything of the kind you write about. Attack helicopters are used against armed terrorists who are a mixture of alien mercenaries, local criminals and local pro-Russian militants. The populaces which were rioting a month or two ago by now have realized what DPR and LPR are bringing to them so they are mostly scared, indifferrent or dissatisfied with shooting, shelling, looting, robbing and the like. As for the rumors, the head of a local Communist party organization in a Lugansk town (don't remember the name) moonlights the head of a band of terrorists who captured all administrative buildings there. The headquarters of Communist party in another town is at the same time the headquarters of "rioters". I don't like the idea of banning any party (including Svoboda), but I'm not sure what should be done with a party openly calling for division of the country or separating a part of it.

“I don't see why Russian minorities (as you call them) might be scared of” Well, a good start is to try to understand, and if you can’t, ask them.

You seem to have had a tour around Russian-speaking South-East, canvassed their opinion and formed yours to be able to proclaim the existence of a universal horror among "Russian minorities" (I still don't understand while they are in plural). So my asking them is of no importance to you any more.

“don't you name a person” and… that makes it a personal attack? So, yes, I recognised you as a person when I write you are a smoke-screen user. So?

You named a person and gave him (me) a characteristic employing conceptual metaphor with a negative connotation. I consider it as a personal attack. But our discussion is going too much linguistic. We have discussed vocabulary, grammar, what next - phonetics?

So this isn't even a new issue, and yet we were told it's all about Russia scaring the Crimeans into cessation rather than the Crimeans wanting it.

As you see this issue was peacefully approached and solved once and could have been solved again but for Russian propaganda and subsequent interference and annexation.

Didn't Yeltsin also let Russia fall into corruption and bankruptcy so deep that the Russian people elected the strongman Putin to clean up the mess?

Which you seem to believe he had done? I saw an interview with a Canadian citizen (working now for CBC, IIRC) who comes from Kharkiv. He had lived here in his childhood and now came to report on the events. Before visiting Ukraine he met some of his old friends in Russia. This friend started with the old "fascists on Maidan" rhetorics. But as their conversation veered towards Russian powers-that-be this friend said that Yanukovych's luxuries fall utterly short of what Putin and his close circle have. So this Russian ended his monologue with: "I wish Russia would have its Maidan".

[Pannonian]

What one thinks has nothing to do with the legitimacy of a chunk of a counrty changing its affiliation. Why, Belgium is split (linguistically, culturally, historically) in two almost equal parts yet they keep living together. The same was with Ukraine and Crimea.

You what? What do you think is self-determination, one of the founding principles of the post-colonial world, if not the identity of a nation being decided by its people? You don't think of Crimeans as Ukrainian, Crimeans don't think of themselves as Ukrainian, so why the arguments over them not being Ukrainian?

[Husar]

I have already given you examples of such conditions. If Bavaria drifts away culturally from Germany with Austria, then at some point Bavarians and Austrians might seriously suggest that they should join each other.

If ethnic Turks become the majority in almost every city and town in a sizeable area of Germany, they may at some point ask for federalisation or secession for their area.

If multiculturalism means that one part of the neighbourhood is occupied by one culture and another part by another culture, then the friction it causes will stay within the neighbourhood.

If multiculturalism means that one part of the city is occupied by one culture and another part by another culture, then the friction it causes will stay within the city.

If multiculturalism means that one part of the country is occupied by one culture and another part by another culture, then the friction it causes will be at a national level, and can during the right circumstances lead to separatism and nasty things for the whole country.

How is any of that multiculturalism instead of segregation?

[Gilrandir]

You what? What do you think is self-determination, one of the founding principles of the post-colonial world, if not the identity of a nation being decided by its people? You don't think of Crimeans as Ukrainian, Crimeans don't think of themselves as Ukrainian, so why the arguments over them not being Ukrainian?

The talks goes round and round in circles. There is no Crimean nation: it is a mixture of (mostly) Russians and Ukrainians who moved there after WWII when the native Tatars were evicted. Then a part of Tatars returned. So the self-determination principle here may be (if at all) applied only to Tatars who voiced (and still do) there unwillingness to leave Ukraine and join Russia. In any case, Crimeans thinking either way does not make the referendum that was held (especially the way it was held) legal, legitimate of any other L-word you can think of.

[Gilrandir]

How is any of that multiculturalism instead of segregation?

I warned Viking: be ready to be counted among THE MOST HATED ONES on this forum.

[Husar]

I warned Viking: be ready to be counted among THE MOST HATED ONES on this forum.

I'm merely arguing his point, not once have I said he is racist, I'm saying his definition of multiculturalism is completely off. In fact I agree with him that segregation is not the right way to go.

Why do you keep accusing me of hating Viking? If your sense for that is as good as your sense for what's going on in Ukraine, I can only assume the pro-russians are puppets of Washington...

[Viking]

How is any of that multiculturalism instead of segregation?

Multiculturalism is intimately connected to segregation. Let's say you take 1000 people from a distant country an settle them in a new country with 400 million inhabitants. If you spread these people out thinly all over the country, such that there is no more than 1 person from that culture living in the same town/city; has this made the country multicultural? Hardly.

If you take those 1000 people and settle them in the same city of 100 000 inhabitants, is the city multicultural now? We're certainly getting somewhere.

If we stick with the previous scenario, and these people do not settle in the same part of town, they are very likely to gradually assimilate and no longer truly represent much of their original culture. 15 generations down, and there might literally be no traces left of the immigrants' original culture; thanks to things like intermarriage.

If they, on the other hand, settle in the same part of town, they are more likely to find mates within their own group, and even far into the future, this part of town can have a clearly distinct cultural identity.

If there is no segregation or relatively large numbers of representants for a minority culture, the minority culture, and the multiculturalism with it, is not likely to last that terribly long.

I warned Viking: be ready to be counted among THE MOST HATED ONES on this forum.

Not particularly worried about that.

[Fisherking]

How is any of that multiculturalism instead of segregation?

Multiculturalism is a misnomer. People practice only one culture at a time. They may integrate aspects of other cultures over time but it is as a part of the prevailing culture.

Multiculturalism is just a buzz word for tolerance. Something most people lack, even while professing to embrace it.

The current situation in Ukraine is about seeing differences. The major difference is language, not really culture. How extensive a difference in religion and lifestyle do you think Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers have? It is only appealing to a misguided sense of patriotism.

It may have begun with political problems of corruption but it has degenerated.

It does relate to Bavaria also. Were they tomorrow decide to enact a low making Bayrisch the official language you would wind up with Frankisch separatists and others.

Also, in reply to your quip about farmers; All real wealth springs from the land, either as produce or recourses. Everything else depends on that. Industries add value, markets and resale add cost, and banks create money from debt. Don’t think that those few farmers can be done without.

[Gilrandir]

I'm merely arguing his point, not once have I said he is racist, I'm saying his definition of multiculturalism is completely off. In fact I agree with him that segregation is not the right way to go.

Why do you keep accusing me of hating Viking? If your sense for that is as good as your sense for what's going on in Ukraine, I can only assume the pro-russians are puppets of Washington...

I don't accuse you of hating Viking. In fact, your arguing his point is the way it should be done - without getting personal. I expected aforementioned accusations to come from a different quarter. But either they are losing their touch or I was the favored object to practice venom-spitting.
Speaking of multiculturalism, I will express my opinion (though unsolicited, of course): I don't like people from Country 1 go and settle for good in Country 2 and the other way around. I don't like Ukrainians to migrate elsewhere and I don't like foreigners to root in Ukraine. Tourism is Ok but no migration.

[Husar]

Multiculturalism is a misnomer. People practice only one culture at a time. They may integrate aspects of other cultures over time but it is as a part of the prevailing culture.

Multiculturalism is just a buzz word for tolerance. Something most people lack, even while professing to embrace it.

Yes, it still doesn't occur to me though, how Ukraine is somehow an example for multiculturalism given how Russians and Ukrainians have the same roots and their cultures hardly differ. By that definition, every country today is multicultural and could break apart any time except North Korea.

It does relate to Bavaria also. Were they tomorrow decide to enact a low making Bayrisch the official language you would wind up with Frankisch separatists and others.

So you agree that this is not entirely Putin's fault and the interim government is also to blame?

Also, in reply to your quip about farmers; All real wealth springs from the land, either as produce or recourses. Everything else depends on that. Industries add value, markets and resale add cost, and banks create money from debt. Don’t think that those few farmers can be done without.

I didn't say that I think they can be done without, did I? I just said the farmers alone wouldn't produce the same amount of wealth as the farmers and all the other workers do together.

Speaking of multiculturalism, I will express my opinion (though unsolicited, of course): I don't like people from Country 1 go and settle for good in Country 2 and the other way around. I don't like Ukrainians to migrate elsewhere and I don't like foreigners to root in Ukraine. Tourism is Ok but no migration.

Why? I know all kinds of people who themselves or their parents have foreign roots, my father is dutch and does not have the german nationality to this day (although I never feel like a person with a migration background because, let's face it, I grew up here and the cultural differences are negligible anyway, even the language). Why should I not want all these people to be here? Would I somehow be happier if all my friends were pure Germans? I'll spare you the obvious comparison.

[Fisherking]

@Husar

The point is that most people are xenophobic to one degree or another. They don’t trust anyone who is different. If they can find anything at all that can be enough.

Ukraine is just an example of it gone over the top, at the moment. It is being exploited, primarily by the Russians, but also by extreme Nationalists. You can’t call them fascism because that requires corporate-government collusion.

The problem started as political corruption but the mistrust of different groups has spiraled into this.

You don’t need much difference in people for them to decide they have huge differences and insurmountable problems. The time was when being borne with red hair was enough to get you burned as a witch, or being left handed. Anything is enough.

But it is being exploited for political ends. Blame who you will! There is plenty to go round.

It all should have ended when the president agreed to withdraw the laws and again when he stepped down, or at any point when consolatory actions were taken. Just blame the latest agitator.

Putin is definitely at fault for Crimea. With all the rest you can blame the US, the EU, Ukraine, Russia, and all the varying groups with rectal cranial insertion.

On the side of the west, I would say it is about domestic weapons sales to boost corporate profits. The Russian side seems to be nationalistic expansion and for Ukraine political unrest is becoming a way of life.

[Kadagar_AV]

How is any of that multiculturalism instead of segregation?

What is the difference between multiculturalism and segregation?

Do you find an example of a multicultural society that is not segregated?

[Brenus]

“You named a person and gave him (me) a characteristic employing conceptual metaphor with a negative connotation” Ohhh… Sorry, I am sooooo sorry.
However, a personnel attack is what you did. To qualify you as a smoke-screen user is just that, a qualification.

“Attack helicopters are used against armed terrorists who are a mixture of alien mercenaries” So, the expelled President was wrong. He should have qualified the movement in Kiev as terrorism them sent the attack helicopters. Then, you emphases on being a linguist: Alien is quite a strong word, not foreigner, no, alien… Brrr, I almost see their babies jumping at the face of the population.

“So my asking them is of no importance to you anymore.” I fully understood yet that others' opinion is not your concern. You have a population in your country rioting and you don’t want to know why…

“I don't like Ukrainians to migrate elsewhere and I don't like foreigners to root in Ukraine. Tourism is Ok but no migration”. Yeah, they are “alien”. Extreme nationalists, you said…

“As for the rumors, the head of a local Communist party organization in a Lugansk town (don't remember the name) moonlights the head of a band of terrorists who captured all administrative buildings there. The headquarters of Communist party in another town is at the same time the headquarters of "rioters"” Great, democracy is in move with this. 2 persons are perhaps in a separatist movement and they perhaps belong to one party (and the fact they use a building of this party is surely a proof, like a hat on a man) and it is o.k. to ban the party.

[Husar]

What is the difference between multiculturalism and segregation?

Do you find an example of a multicultural society that is not segregated?

IMO the difference is that multiculturalism is a peaceful coexistance with partial blending and cooperation while segregation may be peaceful, but severely lacks the cooperation and the partial blending of cultures and people.

As such, multiculturalism is more of an ideal that fails not just because of the immigrants, but also because the host countries often fail to implement it. The USA are actually a kind of multicultural society in some ways, less so in others. I also know some educated turkish people who fit very well into our society but have still retained quite a few parts of their turkish culture, I would see them as some ideal of multiculturalism. I am well aware that this is certainly not the case with all of them and becomes more problematic the "poorer" (or more criminal) the neighborhood gets.

And what I dislike about lamenting the failure of multiculturalism is that it's often exactly this defeatist attitude and these prejudices against the immigrants, the idea that "we will never get along anyway, so why talk to them?" that leads to a failure of multiculturalism. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's always easy to say "well, humans are just like that, they are xenophobic", yeah, nothing we can do. But humans also can't fly, did we give up on that as well or did we experiment until we managed to make it work? We love to praise ourselves for scientific advancements but when it comes to social advancements we shrug our soldiers and say "nothing we can do about it". IMO that simply speaks of unwillingness instead of inability because we look down on such defeatist attitudes in science and business.

[GenosseGeneral]

On the side of the west, I would say it is about domestic weapons sales to boost corporate profits. The Russian side seems to be nationalistic expansion and for Ukraine political unrest is becoming a way of life.

Well, Ukrainian buys domestic. The Ukrainian arms industry is probably the one profiting most from this mess, as there finally is a buyer for its products. It used to export somethingl ike 90% of its production. Although, Avakov also said something about helmets and protective vests coming from Europe this weekend and these guys helmets remind me somehow of American or German helmets. I am not sure, though. Btw, the guys on the pictures are the proud second battaillon of the Ukrainian national guard. While this is not officially a civil war yet, all the ingredients are unfortunately there, including various and obscure armed formation on both sides.
This series of pics shows for instance a check point of the "Russian Orthodox Army". http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/pol...yy-na-donbasse
And there are more of this type, like the pro-Ukrainian "Donbass" or "Dnejpr" units.

I really like the coverage by VICE news. This one includes an interesting interview with a simple grunt of tha national guard, about his way into a trench somewhere in Donetsk Oblast'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzAIXo9BeFA