What's the point in elite units?

**The Stranger** · 06-07-2014, 13:28

one of the things we found out back then is that elite units get more efficient on bigger settings. because it takes much longer, ratio wise, for them to rout.

**QuintusSertorius** · 06-07-2014, 14:33

Originally Posted by The Stranger

one of the things we found out back then is that elite units get more efficient on bigger settings. because it takes much longer, ratio wise, for them to rout.

I only play on Huge; I've never found any to be worthwhile.

**Thoras** · 06-07-2014, 20:09

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I only play on Huge; I've never found any to be worthwhile.

They stay and hold far longer without routing,take less casulites and kill more and faster.They better at flanking.

**QuintusSertorius** · 06-07-2014, 21:56

Originally Posted by Thoras

They stay and hold far longer without routing,take less casulites and kill more and faster.They better at flanking.

I've found it very rare that Greek units break (they have morale one or two points higher than their equivalents from other cultures). Even when my general is off haring about playing Alexander, as long as he doesn't get killed or routed himself, they tend to hold. I remember in a siege battle I had one unit of levy hoplites (!) who died almost to a man on the walls, but never gave up.

My non-Greek units, on the other hand, can be flaky at times.

**The Stranger** · 06-08-2014, 03:01

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I only play on Huge; I've never found any to be worthwhile.

well as i tested and posted in that thread i linked, the TAB or their spanish/irish equivalent can hold their own against almost 3x their cost in levy units. if thats not worthwhile, then I dont know... 1 unit can tie down 20 haploi, which are arguably one of the better levy units as well.

**QuintusSertorius** · 06-08-2014, 10:35

Originally Posted by The Stranger

well as i tested and posted in that thread i linked, the TAB or their spanish/irish equivalent can hold their own against almost 3x their cost in levy units. if thats not worthwhile, then I dont know... 1 unit can tie down 20 haploi, which are arguably one of the better levy units as well.

Levy are the wrong comparator. You should be comparing them with Regular units (eg Hoplitai) who are very good value.

I rarely face levy units, and I rarely use them except for garrisons or to make my armies deliberately less effective. For example in my current Epeiros game, the unit of levy hoplitai in my royal army are "Illyrians retrained as hoplites".

Here's that army:

The only elite in the stack (besides my FMs) are the Kretans.

**The Stranger** · 06-08-2014, 11:23

i disagree, theyre not. The question we were debating, atleast in that thread, and also a bit in this one, was amongst others, the cost-effectiveness of elite units.

The result was, that SOME (with emphasis on some, for various historical and balance reasons) elite units are cost-effective, but that the regular units are in most cases the most cost-effective units in the game. It doesnt even take alot of testing to deduce this, because if you look at stats, elites are easily 2x more expensive while perhaps only 20-25% better in stats. However, if you are asking about the point of elite units, the point is this, they are simply unmatched in their specific role on the battlefield. So an elite cavalry will simply do better in routing the enemy faster, this will not always be worth 2x more upkeep, but that one battle you needed the enemy to route instantly to not lose the battle, you are going to wish you had that elite. The same for elite phalanx or melee infantry, and the ultimate unit, the TAB, like all elite they simply have more staying power, they barely ever route, they barely ever give up ground, and they can tie down so many other units, even when surrounded, they just dont die. Again, in most battles, specially if not flanked, a regular will do the job equally well (not better ofcourse, but as good to not warrant 2x the upkeep for an elite) but that one battle, for example in case your village got attacked by 60 angry hoplite citizen that want democracy, you are going to wish your garrison was made up of 3 TAB and not of 6 hoplites, because the TAB will fight to the last man, while the hoplites will break alot sooner.

**QuintusSertorius** · 06-08-2014, 11:40

Originally Posted by The Stranger

i disagree, theyre not. The question we were debating, atleast in that thread, and also a bit in this one, was amongst others, the cost-effectiveness of elite units.

The result was, that SOME (with emphasis on some, for various historical and balance reasons) elite units are cost-effective, but that the regular units are in most cases the most cost-effective units in the game. It doesnt even take alot of testing to deduce this, because if you look at stats, elites are easily 2x more expensive while perhaps only 20-25% better in stats. However, if you are asking about the point of elite units, the point is this, they are simply unmatched in their specific role on the battlefield. So an elite cavalry will simply do better in routing the enemy faster, this will not always be worth 2x more upkeep, but that one battle you needed the enemy to route instantly to not lose the battle, you are going to wish you had that elite. The same for elite phalanx or melee infantry, and the ultimate unit, the TAB, like all elite they simply have more staying power, they barely ever route, they barely ever give up ground, and they can tie down so many other units, even when surrounded, they just dont die. Again, in most battles, specially if not flanked, a regular will do the job equally well (not better ofcourse, but as good to not warrant 2x the upkeep for an elite) but that one battle, for example in case your village got attacked by 60 angry hoplite citizen that want democracy, you are going to wish your garrison was made up of 3 TAB and not of 6 hoplites, because the TAB will fight to the last man, while the hoplites will break alot sooner.

Yes, and from the very beginning I was talking about comparing elites to regular units, not to levies. Comparing them to levies is meaningless. You've just proved my point, in the meaningful comparison, regular to elite, elites aren't worth it.

To date I've rarely had a regular break, not unless it was a battle I'd lost anyway. Levies break when pressed, but that's because they're levies and have low morale.

I take issue with cavalry, though. Elite cavalry (like Thessalikoi) are no better at breaking infantry than regular heavies (like Lonchophoroi), or even light lancers (like Illyrioi Hippeis). Worse, they become completely ineffective once tired. I saw this in a battle against Makedonia once; my unit of Curepos killed a lot more enemies (because they could keep charging at reasonable fitness) than the Thessailoi (who were Tired after two charges).

**The Stranger** · 06-08-2014, 12:05

lol... you didnt read my post?

i just said, that they are worth it, because if you need 1 unit to hold the line, which unit will do best? the elite obviously... so they are worth it.

and im NOT comparing elites to levies, im pitting elites VS levies, to see how cost effective they are. And then we pitted regulars VS levies and the conclusion was that regulars are slightly more cost-effective VS levies than elites. so please, read...

so your main army is best to be made up of regulars, they will give you the best upkeep-battle usefulness ratio, but taking 1-2 elites with you, is definitely worth it, because they can be assigned tasks and do stuff no amount of regulars can pull off. For example on VH-VH, 3 elite FM can take the entirety of greece in a blitz, no amounf of regulars, even if they replenished, could pull that off.

but in any case, if you are so rich that you can make an army of elites... why not. if u want to. ofcourse that would be the best army u could make... no debating tat