The threat on Archeology in Syria, Ukraine, and Elsewhere.

[I_damian]

Turns out I was wrong about Ukraine. There are plenty of artillery shells and bombs flying back and forth. I thought no one was actually going to go to open war for it. I frequently underestimate the readiness with which people will kill each other even within the same country. Even when both sides claim the same nationality... more or less...

How can you underestimate people's readiness to start killing each other? It's what humans do. Since before history even began to be recorded we've been sticking sharp things in each other. We love it. No matter how horrific war is and no matter what horrible things take place during war, people still love it and want more. It's just part of our nature. We love killing each other. Even peaceful, pacifist people like myself sometimes fantasize about being a soldier or leading an army. That's why I play EB and other strategy games - I like the idea of war. So do you because you play it/them as well.

Even after having unrestricted and unsupervised access to the internet since age 11, for the last 14 or 15 years, and seeing the horrors of war on websites like Ogrish and Liveleak such as beheadings, executions, women and children blown apart and splattered all over the road, it's still impossible to deny that 10,000 guys launching bullets and bombs at each other is... kinda cool.

So hurry up with my EB2 damnit! I will enslave ALL the barbarians!

[kdrakak]

How can you underestimate people's readiness to start killing each other? It's what humans do. Since before history even began to be recorded we've been sticking sharp things in each other. We love it. No matter how horrific war is and no matter what horrible things take place during war, people still love it and want more. It's just part of our nature. We love killing each other. Even peaceful, pacifist people like myself sometimes fantasize about being a soldier or leading an army. That's why I play EB and other strategy games - I like the idea of war. So do you because you play it/them as well.

Even after having unrestricted and unsupervised access to the internet since age 11, for the last 14 or 15 years, and seeing the horrors of war on websites like Ogrish and Liveleak such as beheadings, executions, women and children blown apart and splattered all over the road, it's still impossible to deny that 10,000 guys launching bullets and bombs at each other is... kinda cool.

So hurry up with my EB2 damnit! I will enslave ALL the barbarians!

I guess maybe I am hoping for more of a build-up before the massive killing begins... or a reason that makes more sense to me... A "Sorry we've tried everything and it didn't work so now I have to start killing you and yours"-type of approach. I don't know...

[Skald]

Its madness and I fear that this could escalate into a wider conflict once the spark is ignited.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Hopefully it will end in a compromise.

The West should propose a treaty with Russia that recognises the Crimea as part of Russia, in exchange for Russia guaranteeing the borders of the rest of Ukraine. The treaty should also expressly prohibit further NATO or EU expansion into the former USSR - meaning that Ukraine (and Belarus) can never join NATO or the EU, in return for Russia being expressly and publicly prohibited from any kind of military, political or economic intervention in favour of Russian ethnic minorities in other countries.

That way everyone gets some of what they want. Russia gets Crimea and an end to NATO/EU expansion toward Russia, Ukraine gets Donetsk and Luhansk back as the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine will collapse without Russian support, and the West gets a treaty protecting the Baltic states with Russian minorities, thus avoiding a conflict between Russia and NATO.

The Russian minorities may not like it, as they will feel Russia has abandoned them, but if they don't, they should emigrate to Russia.

[tobymoby]

Hopefully it will end in a compromise.

The West should propose a treaty with Russia that recognises the Crimea as part of Russia, in exchange for Russia guaranteeing the borders of the rest of Ukraine. The treaty should also expressly prohibit further NATO or EU expansion into the former USSR - meaning that Ukraine (and Belarus) can never join NATO or the EU, in return for Russia being expressly and publicly prohibited from any kind of military, political or economic intervention in favour of Russian ethnic minorities in other countries.

That way everyone gets some of what they want. Russia gets Crimea and an end to NATO/EU expansion toward Russia, Ukraine gets Donetsk and Luhansk back as the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine will collapse without Russian support, and the West gets a treaty protecting the Baltic states with Russian minorities, thus avoiding a conflict between Russia and NATO.

The Russian minorities may not like it, as they will feel Russia has abandoned them, but if they don't, they should emigrate to Russia.

Russia will never accept such a thing. It is in their interest to destabilize Ukraine. While outright annexation is unlikely, Putin would undoubtedly like to have the country. Further, it is in the interest of the West to keep Russia under wraps, hence more-or-less friendly relationships with former soviet republics.

[Brennus]

Gentlemen, as one of the moderators of this forum I must insist the topic returns to the original purpose of this thread: discussing the threat posed to cultural heritage in conflict zones. Discussions of politics, diplomacy and warfare should be conducted in the Backroom where there is a wealth of discussion on these issues.

Thank you for frequenting the EBII forum though.