Ukraine Thread

[Montmorency]

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

This is proven false by the fact that the bulk of them chose Normandy over the Riviera.

[Husar]

So when in late August the separatists were beaten on all fronts and liberation of Donbas was a question of a couple of weeks (admitted by Girkin himself - sure, you believe HIM?), all of a sudden they, alone and unaided, launched a prodigious counter attack and encircled Ukrainian army at Ilovaysk, evicted them from Savur Mohyla and expelled from Luhansk, some districts of which had been already under Ukrainian control.
I saw weather(and not only weather)-beaten soldiers - and I have no reason not to trust them - who said they were negotiating withdrawal of the encircled troops with RUSSIAN OFFICERS, who were procrastinating for quite a while expecting orders "from high above", as they put it.
And earlier, the storming of the central police department in Kramatorsk was done by untrained Ukrainan rebels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLX8KlgmUN8
I have already mentioned a special accent and a shibboleth revealing their Russian origin.
But, you are expecting Putin's speech which would directly claim the presence of his troops in Ukraine. Well, he may do it some day. In his memoirs.
As for the convoys, every time a new one arrives Ukrainian soldiers report more intense shelling of their positions. The last one was in Ukraine a couple of days ago and today the quantity of shellings was twice as much and four soldiers were killed.

Russia wants to save the russian nationals just like the US tried in Iran and so on. It's just easier for Russia when it's right next to their border. All the big nations do this if they can. Ukrainian soldiers and other government agencies are always trustworthy for you, but to think they have no agenda/reason to lie would be rather naive, no?
I could also claim that we almost had the Russians when we were in front of Moscow and then suddenly they had new men and drove us back. Maybe your army overstretched and didn't resupply properly, then blamed Russia for their failure to secure their advances. I mean there was hardly an army left at all when this conflict started, but now they're supposedly all professionals.

Yes, sure, all the tanks, BMWs, BMPs, and other vehicles as well as ammo are being mined by the separatists in weapon-rich deposits under fertile Donbas soil. Or, as an option, they constantly capture/recieve new ones from the Ukrainians, then take them to Russia and then to Ukraine again. The latter event was more than once detected by OSCE missions.

The OSCE is a NATO-tool, the "army" probably lost them or they switched sides and it's covered up with propaganda about russian involvement.

Oh yeah, remember that time when Putin said there weren't any Russian soldiers in Crimea and then admitted it. Thus, we must believe whatever he is saying and will say in future.

Here is what options Soros sees for European strategy on Ukraine (and Russia).
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...escue-ukraine/

Soros is a capitalist from the US, so much about reliable sources.
Putin only sent Russian soldiers to bring security to the island after local self-defense groups had already begun by themselves.

This is proven false by the fact that the bulk of them chose Normandy over the Riviera.

A lot of the British and US soldiers probably had ancestors from there, I hear they like to trace their family trees in these countries. This could also explain why Russian soldiers go to Ukraine in their free time.

[Montmorency]

A lot of the British and US soldiers probably had ancestors from there

Don't be so Anglo-normative.

[Ice]

Husar, are you trolling? I honestly can't tell.

[Husar]

Husar, are you trolling? I honestly can't tell.

A little bit perhaps, every discussion needs a devil's advocate or it turns into a circlejerk of groupthink,. no?

[Gilrandir]

Ukrainian soldiers and other government agencies are always trustworthy for you, but to think they have no agenda/reason to lie would be rather naive, no?

If the evidence comes from multiple mouths then no. People from voluntary battalions, army and intelligence gave pretty much the same picture of negotiations with Russian army officers at Ilovaysk. But, perhaps it again is no proof for you, so keep believing the outstanding ability of BMP-driven russian soldiers to lose themselves 20 km deep from the border.

I could also claim that we almost had the Russians when we were in front of Moscow and then suddenly they had new men and drove us back.

The USSR had had then the territory and human resources to draw reinforcements from. The Lugandon territory was shrinking every day, so the same logics doesn't apply here.

Maybe your army overstretched and didn't resupply properly, then blamed Russia for their failure to secure their advances.

It couldn't have happened on all fronts, especially in the south where there were NO SEPARATISTS' FORCES ALTOGETHER.

The OSCE is a NATO-tool, the "army" probably lost them or they switched sides and it's covered up with propaganda about russian involvement.

And keeps losing and losing ammo and weapons every day. And all of them brand new ones produced within the last year or two with accompanying documents referring them to certain detachments of Russian regular army. And this one also came from Ukranian depots:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

Soros is a capitalist from the US, so much about reliable sources.

It is not about reliabilty, it is a reading to consider.
Perhaps, this is mor reliable for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

[Husar]

The USSR had had then the territory and human resources to draw reinforcements from. The Lugandon territory was shrinking every day, so the same logics doesn't apply here.

the Russian terrirtory was also shrinking every day, it just wasn't shrinking fast enough, just like Lugandon wasn't shrinking fast enough before the Russians came to help.

If the evidence comes from multiple mouths then no. People from voluntary battalions, army and intelligence gave pretty much the same picture of negotiations with Russian army officers at Ilovaysk. But, perhaps it again is no proof for you, so keep believing the outstanding ability of BMP-driven russian soldiers to lose themselves 20 km deep from the border.

It couldn't have happened on all fronts, especially in the south where there were NO SEPARATISTS' FORCES ALTOGETHER.

And keeps losing and losing ammo and weapons every day. And all of them brand new ones produced within the last year or two with accompanying documents referring them to certain detachments of Russian regular army. And this one also came from Ukranian depots:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

A lot of claims by NATO experts and Ukrainian soldiers, just because there are many people with good reasons to lie, there is no reason to believe their every word.

It is not about reliabilty, it is a reading to consider.
Perhaps, this is mor reliable for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

So you admit that reliability or accuracy of information is of no concern for you?
And why would life in Russia not be great for a middle-aged, well-off straight guy?

[Gilrandir]

the Russian terrirtory was also shrinking every day, it just wasn't shrinking fast enough, just like Lugandon wasn't shrinking fast enough before the Russians came to help.
A lot of claims by NATO experts and Ukrainian soldiers, just because there are many people with good reasons to lie, there is no reason to believe their every word.

You know perfectly well the size of the USSR left unoccupied by Germans in 1941. Compare it with the size Lugandon had in late August last year and you will have your answer.
But, I'm not going to start all over again what has been discussed for quite a time here as word-bandying will yeild no result. The only thing that brings me comfort is the word "Lugandon" you used. So subconsciously you expressed your attitude to the subject of discussion.

So you admit that reliability or accuracy of information is of no concern for you?

As for the Soros article, since it offers his vision on the FUTURE development of the situation, it is irrelevant. It is the personal view of a well-known and experienced politician whose opinion may be interesting to know and (considering his influence) not a thing to be disregarded.
If you speak of the MH17 article, I don't see why it is not reliable or accurate.

[Husar]

You know perfectly well the size of the USSR left unoccupied by Germans in 1941. Compare it with the size Lugandon had in late August last year and you will have your answer.
But, I'm not going to start all over again what has been discussed for quite a time here as word-bandying will yeild no result. The only thing that brings me comfort is the word "Lugandon" you used. So subconsciously you expressed your attitude to the subject of discussion.

You also say Lugandon, I just copied that. What you missed was the elephant in the room and that wasn't subconscious, that was left there on purpose.

As for the Soros article, since it offers his vision on the FUTURE development of the situation, it is irrelevant. It is the personal view of a well-known and experienced politician whose opinion may be interesting to know and (considering his influence) not a thing to be disregarded.
If you speak of the MH17 article, I don't see why it is not reliable or accurate.

Sometimes people "predict" the future they want instead of the future that would happen if the future they predict didn't turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy just because they predicted it and everybody believes them and acts accordingly.
If I predict today that Russia will strike the US tomorrow and the US launch nuclear bombers to circle near the russian border because I'm so reliable, then maybe Russia will actually strike tomorrow, but not because they were going to anyway, but because the bombers were sent there due to my "prediction". An extreme example, but predictions can have that effect, if perhaps on a smaller scale.

MH-17 was shot down by a ukrainian aircraft that can't even fly that high, this was proven long ago by a random german airline pilot. I argued that it was a SAM at the time but thankfully people forget so fast.

[Gilrandir]

If I predict today that Russia will strike the US tomorrow and the US launch nuclear bombers to circle near the russian border because I'm so reliable, then maybe Russia will actually strike tomorrow, but not because they were going to anyway, but because the bombers were sent there due to my "prediction".

If you have the money and influence of Soros, one should take such predictions seriously. But, hey, who can say you don't. Perhaps we are talking to... oh God, George, is that you?

I argued that it was a SAM at the time but thankfully people forget so fast.

Specify what you mean by SAM. I have several options to Offer: System for Awards Management, Supplier Approval Module, Space Available Mail, Self Adjusting Matress, Smart Assed Masochist...