Speaking of Israel...

[Fragony]

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of Israelis like tough guys like him because they're afraid the Palestinians will be all over them if they elect someone "weak".

And they are absolutily right to think so.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And they are absolutily right to think so.

That would end up being a chicken/egg kinda argument Frags. Are the Palestinians radicalized necessitating strong, aggressive Israeli leaders or are strong, aggressive Israeli leaders leading to Palestinian radicalization?

[Fragony]

That would end up being a chicken/egg kinda argument Frags. Are the Palestinians radicalized necessitating strong, aggressive Israeli leaders or are strong, aggressive Israeli leaders leading to Palestinian radicalization?

The Palestinians are refugees from Libanon. Arabs are discriminated in Israel but that is a social issue, it's wrong but when put in perspective of the hate against Israel it becomess neglectable. They just hate jews and must kill them wherever they find them. Israel grabs no land, it is perfectly fine with what they got after just about the entire arab world attacked them, and the arabs lost because their camels routed. Are we going to reshape the map of Europe as well.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Palestinians are refugees from Libanon. Arabs are discriminated in Israel but that is a social issue, it's wrong but when put in perspective of the hate against Israel it becomess neglectable. They just hate jews and must kill them wherever they find them. Israel grabs no land, it is perfectly fine with what they got after just about the entire arab world attacked them, and the arabs lost because their camels routed. Are we going to reshape the map of Europe as well.

Yeesh. Just to set things at closer to acknowledged fact in the interest of clear discussion....

Some Palestinian Arabs lived, and still liv, in Lebanon. Many live in what is today Israel. Many live in refugee 'camps' in neighboring Jordan, as well as in the West Bank and Gaza which are -- to some extent at least -- under Palestinian authority. Quite a number of them come from families who vacated what is today Israel to get out of the way of the fighting -- at the request of Arab neighbors -- in 1948.

Israel not only established itself without waiting for the official imprimatur of the UN, but also annexed territory they had acquired during the 1948 conflict that went past the proposed UN boundaries of 1947. Israel then acquired more land -- Gaza, the West bank, and Sinai -- after their successful offensive war in 1967. The Sinai was subsequently returned to Egyptian sovereignty, while most of Gaza and the West Bank were remanded to the Palestinian authority. Jerusalem, also acquired in 1967, has not been returned and has been designated by Israel as their capital. Feel free to argue that Israel may keep any of these lands by right of conquest (and even agree with Israel that they attacked in 1967 only to forestall an -- admittedly likely -- Arab assault), but do not live among the sidhe and continue to believe that "Israel grabs no land."

Palestinians are not, in their entirety, haters of Jews and need not "kill them wherever they find them." I had at least one Palestinian in a class last year -- a conflict management class by-the-by -- and none of my Jewish students in that same class expressed any concern -- nor did they have to go to the student health center to get patched up.

In short, stop stereotyping an entire culture in a couple of sentences. Your sniping at Palestinians has all the verifiable "truth" of any other stereotype -- like all those Dutch wearing wooden shoes and skating everywhere they go.

[Kralizec]

(and even agree with Israel that they attacked in 1967 only to forestall an -- admittedly likely -- Arab assault)

Was an Arab attack really a probable scenario then? I've read much about it but my impression was that it probably wasn't. The troops that Egypt sent into the Sinai were more for propaganda purposes than anything else. It was about visibly/theatricly retaking the land after it had been a UN administered buffer zone forcibly imposed on them after the Suez crisis, which unquestionably was an unprovoked attack by Israel (& friends). And the Arab performance during this war suggests that they were not just surprised but completely unprepared for any sort of war, unlike the Yom Kippur war several years later.

In any case, it's hard to see why Palestinians should pay for the policies of their Arab neighbours.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Was an Arab attack really a probable scenario then? I've read much about it but my impression was that it probably wasn't. The troops that Egypt sent into the Sinai were more for propaganda purposes than anything else. It was about visibly/theatricly retaking the land after it had been a UN administered buffer zone forcibly imposed on them after the Suez crisis, which unquestionably was an unprovoked attack by Israel (& friends). And the Arab performance during this war suggests that they were not just surprised but completely unprepared for any sort of war, unlike the Yom Kippur war several years later.

In any case, it's hard to see why Palestinians should pay for the policies of their Arab neighbours.

I saw some history channel stuff that said that Egypt and Syria, in particular, were forward deploying air assets and were putting afv's through their "fresh tracks to be ready" maintenance. There is also some suggestion that efforts were being made to up morale prior to an assault. It is, of course, every bit as probable that this was part of the ongoing posturing common to that era. The general assessments that I have read -- admittedly from sources neutral to or even supportive of Israel -- suggest that an attack was likely. Nobody can prove that one had been ordered and the various Arab states publicly asserted that they had no such intention.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...In any case, it's hard to see why Palestinians should pay for the policies of their Arab neighbours.

Well, remember that my comment was geared towards reminding Frags that, whatever the justification, Israel could not really be thought of as unwilling to "grab" land.

However, to point out one connection, many Palestinian Arabs vacated properties at the urging of their neighboring Arab states to get out of the line of fire while Israel was swept into the sea. The "right of return" concept, stemming from that time, has been and continues to be one of the issues entwined in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Whether or not this is a justifiable "why Palestinians should pay" often depends on the perspective of the assessor.

[Hooahguy]

So King Bibi, as some Israelis call him, paid a visit to Washington today. Currently in a rather long argument on Facebook after I had the audacity to say that Bibi does not speak for me (as a Jew).
Anyone eager to jump in and have their say just send a PM! Havent seen a rabid Israel debate like this for a long long time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The Palestinians are refugees from Libanon. Arabs are discriminated in Israel but that is a social issue, it's wrong but when put in perspective of the hate against Israel it becomess neglectable. They just hate jews and must kill them wherever they find them. Israel grabs no land, it is perfectly fine with what they got after just about the entire arab world attacked them, and the arabs lost because their camels routed. Are we going to reshape the map of Europe as well.

We reshaped the map of the Middle East and planted a colony in Palastine - expecting the Palastinians to be "over it" is crass and stupid - even so they aren't all rabid Jew killers, though I'd wager they do hate the Jews for taking their land.

This bloody fracticidal war has been going on for decades, and the Jews started it - and will happily kill their own brothers and sisters just because they converted to Christianity of Islam a thousand odd years ago.

[Kralizec]

In the past, the IDF used to demolish houses of Palestinian families if one of their relatives had been involved in terrorism. It was discontinued by the IDF because there was no proof it acted as a deterrent. In fact, there were clues it had the opposite effect. Netanyahu reinstated the policy to make himself tough.

And in another episode, the Mossad advises the USA against sanctions on Iran because they predict it would be counterproductive. Netanyahu had pressed for these sanctions vigorously, with US republicans following his lead.

But sure, Israel is in safe hands with a tough guy like Netanyahu and his flock of pliant republicans. It wouldn't do to have weak-minded organisations like the IDF or the Mossad deciding how to do things.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hah! The Mossad. Clearly a bunch of starry-eyed pollyannas.