If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public school

[Sir Moody]

Oh agreed however the problem with being unbiased is the other side isn't.

Science tried to be "unbiased" and look where it ended up - we now have a Measles crisis across most the Western world all because the Anti-Vac crowd throw out so much Conspiracy nonsense being "unbiased" basically hands the floor to them.

Let me put it this way - why mention that vaccines contain substances which can be harmful in massively larger doses when such information is immediately used by opponents to shout "LOOK LOOK I TOLD YOU THEY WERE POISONOUS!"

As Paracelsus said - EVERYTHING is poisonous if taken in large enough doses - even water or oxygen...

[Gilrandir]

Let me put it this way - why mention that vaccines contain substances which can be harmful in massively larger doses when such information is immediately used by opponents to shout "LOOK LOOK I TOLD YOU THEY WERE POISONOUS!"

Not so long ago DDT was not considered to be harmful in any doses. Our knowledge about substances changes, so in any case I would like (and have a right, don't I) to know what I'm going to let inside my body. Somehow, harmful substances in sweet carbonated drinks and french fries don't discourage people from consuming them in hideous quantities. But they know what's in them anyway.

[Sir Moody]

Not so long ago DDT was not considered to be harmful in any doses.

thats disingenuous - DDT was dangerous in high doses (it was a pesticide for christ sake) - we knew that which is why it was "deployed" in lower doses that were thought safe.

The failing was one of testing - no long term testing was performed and thus the fact that DDT built up through the food chain was missed - since that mistake drugs testing is far more thorough.

Modern vaccines have gone through this far more rigorous drug testing - they are safe.

[Gilrandir]

Modern vaccines have gone through this far more rigorous drug testing - they are safe.

As I have repeatedly shown, this statement doesn't apply to vaccines used in Ukraine.

[Sir Moody]

As I have repeatedly shown, this statement doesn't apply to vaccines used in Ukraine.

I looked it up - the Vaccines in use in the Ukraine are the same ones in use in most of Europe - there was an issue with storage which spoiled a batch but that has since been corrected.

The problems with the Ukrainian vaccine program are 2 fold.

On the one hand the Government cannot afford the vaccines which has led to poorly implemented programs - 41% of the adult population has had the 2 required MMR doses - 95% is required to create Herd immunity.

Secondly there was a "scandal" where a teenage boy died after receiving the Measles shot - at the time many Doctors started to recommend people avoid vaccinations and much like the US and UK with the "MMR scandal" vaccination levels plunged - it has since been proven that the boys death had no link to the vaccine - it was all bunk - however the conspiracies continue to run wild. Apparently the Ukraine has a very strong Anti-Vac lobby which has lead to a severe amount of misinformation.

[Husar]

As I have repeatedly shown, this statement doesn't apply to vaccines used in Ukraine.

As I have said, I do not care, I didn't plan to get my children vaccinated in Ukraine and I still don't.

So to maybe discuss something interesting again, I have never gotten a flu shot. Since the flu mutates every year anyway and the flu shots are sometimes actually a bit more risky than other vaccines AFAIK, I could never be bothered to get one. For the most part of my life I didn't even know that there was a vaccine against the flu. Then there is the issue of it being effective only against a subset of flu viruses. Would it be useful to campaign for everyone to get the flu shot every year in order to maybe one day eradicate the flu or would that be a fruitless exercise given that the flu mutates too fast?

Our government usually advocates that at least the risk groups should get it (doctors, old people etc.) while they leave it somewhat open to the rest. Does that collide with the herd immunity thing or is the vaccine strong enough for the vaccinated ones to be of use to them anyway even if all the other people get infected? Consider that the flu usually kills a few thousand older people each year in most of the western world while younger people seem to mostly have about a week of a hard time before they recover if they get infected.

Am I killing people by proxy for not getting the flu shot every year or is that an acceptable case of not getting vaccinated? Do you get the flu shot every year? Oh yeah, when I went to my doctor to get some overdue vaccination updates (FSME etc.), they didn't give me a flu shot either, and didn't mention it.

[Gilrandir]

I looked it up - the Vaccines in use in the Ukraine are the same ones in use in most of Europe - there was an issue with storage which spoiled a batch but that has since been corrected.

The problems with the Ukrainian vaccine program are 2 fold.

On the one hand the Government cannot afford the vaccines which has led to poorly implemented programs - 41% of the adult population has had the 2 required MMR doses - 95% is required to create Herd immunity.

Secondly there was a "scandal" where a teenage boy died after receiving the Measles shot - at the time many Doctors started to recommend people avoid vaccinations and much like the US and UK with the "MMR scandal" vaccination levels plunged - it has since been proven that the boys death had no link to the vaccine - it was all bunk - however the conspiracies continue to run wild. Apparently the Ukraine has a very strong Anti-Vac lobby which has lead to a severe amount of misinformation.

One more scandal I referred to was a vaccine tender won by the son of the then Minister of Health.
On balance, it makes Ukrainian vaccination rather unsafe.

I have never gotten a flu shot. Since the flu mutates every year anyway and the flu shots are sometimes actually a bit more risky than other vaccines AFAIK, I could never be bothered to get one.

A colleague of mine marked a curious tendency. She had a flu vaccine year on year off. She noticed that when she got the vaccine she contracted a flu, when she didn't, well, she didn't. Call it a coincidence if you want, but she quit the flu vaccination.

[Sir Moody]

As I have said, I do not care, I didn't plan to get my children vaccinated in Ukraine and I still don't.

So to maybe discuss something interesting again, I have never gotten a flu shot. Since the flu mutates every year anyway and the flu shots are sometimes actually a bit more risky than other vaccines AFAIK, I could never be bothered to get one. For the most part of my life I didn't even know that there was a vaccine against the flu. Then there is the issue of it being effective only against a subset of flu viruses. Would it be useful to campaign for everyone to get the flu shot every year in order to maybe one day eradicate the flu or would that be a fruitless exercise given that the flu mutates too fast?

Our government usually advocates that at least the risk groups should get it (doctors, old people etc.) while they leave it somewhat open to the rest. Does that collide with the herd immunity thing or is the vaccine strong enough for the vaccinated ones to be of use to them anyway even if all the other people get infected? Consider that the flu usually kills a few thousand older people each year in most of the western world while younger people seem to mostly have about a week of a hard time before they recover if they get infected.

Am I killing people by proxy for not getting the flu shot every year or is that an acceptable case of not getting vaccinated? Do you get the flu shot every year? Oh yeah, when I went to my doctor to get some overdue vaccination updates (FSME etc.), they didn't give me a flu shot either, and didn't mention it.

The Flu shot is problematic - the flu virus mutates very quickly and generally the vaccine will only protect against a few strains - the Doctors make an educated guess at the beginning of "flu season" as to which strains will be the most dominant and then vaccinate for those strains. Depending on how good their guess was determines how effective the vaccine is.

Even if they guess correctly there is still the chance of catching another strain or worse for the vaccinated strains to mutate - rendering the vaccine useless.

Herd immunity therefore is a non issue - you cannot create herd immunity against the flu virus.

Your government is correct in its advice - risk groups and those who come into regular contact with them should be vaccinated to provide as much protection as possible but otherwise it is up to you.

[Don Corleone]

I don't get the flu shot anymore. I did, but I started paying attention the strains they immunize against versus the prevalent strains of that year. In the past 6 years, they've been wrong 4 times, only had one of the two prevalent strains in a 5th and had it right in one of the 6.

Not good enough odds in my book. But the mindset is the same. Beyond "herd immunity", there is "herd mentality". People get incredibly vitrolic when the subject comes up. We do vaccinate our children, and when I'm traveling to a foreign country with a new risk, I get vaccinated for that (like Hep C when I go to China).

But people start sputtering with rage, screaming at the top of their lungs "the science! the science!!! Get a flu-shot you flat-earther!!!

Nothing special about this issue. It has been my experience that we are becoming so closed minded and fear driven, we are losing the ability to have reasonable discourses. The concept of "agree to disagree" seems to be lost forever. Everything has become a blood feud.