Anti-UKIP Propaganda?

[Gilrandir]

We're entirely dependent on growth and once we cannot provide a growth inpopulation anymore, we get ourselves into trouble.

So this seems to be a solution: encourage native population growth instead of discouraging emigration or disadvantaging the newcomers.

[rory_20_uk]

Is it actually suicide or merely risky enough that politicians are just too scared to try to run on a harsh truth platform?

Both come to the same end result. UKIP uses immigration an the EU as scapegoats and the other parties respond with scaremongering since they too don't have a solution.

[Husar]

So this seems to be a solution: encourage native population growth instead of discouraging emigration or disadvantaging the newcomers.

More people = more greenhouse gas emissions, more cars, more oil use, more destruction of natural habitats to grow food, more use of wood that cannot be sustained, more electricity required and at some point way in the future people will either starve, suffocate or die because some luxuries start to fail and they do not know how to survive without them. And that even before the sun eats the earth.
If a higher population leads to an increase in climate change and this in turn leads to a decrease in arable and habitable land, we're just speeding up our progress towards a catastrophe by increasing native populations everywhere.

And even if it were possible it would not eliminate bad jobs that have to be done, bad pay or wealth inequality.

[rory_20_uk]

The EU could create so much food if land was used sensibly that we had massive surpluses and putting it onto the market would have destroyed agriculture in many other countries. The west also throws away c. 30% of the food that we purchase - and a ridiculous percentage never even makes it to the shops in the first place or is thrown away as it goes over the best before date.

More people who use resources like Americans = more use of resources. But if resources were more carefully managed we could have vastly more people with the same impact - cars that were efficient as opposed to designating them vans / trucks that can avoid the legislation to enforce more efficient engines.

I'm not saying that this is inherently a good thing - just it is a possible thing

[Husar]

The EU could create so much food if land was used sensibly that we had massive surpluses and putting it onto the market would have destroyed agriculture in many other countries. The west also throws away c. 30% of the food that we purchase - and a ridiculous percentage never even makes it to the shops in the first place or is thrown away as it goes over the best before date.

More people who use resources like Americans = more use of resources. But if resources were more carefully managed we could have vastly more people with the same impact - cars that were efficient as opposed to designating them vans / trucks that can avoid the legislation to enforce more efficient engines.

I'm not saying that this is inherently a good thing - just it is a possible thing

Yes, but the point was to drive up consumption by increasing the population in order to keep the ecenomy growing. If we grow the population but keep consumption at the same level, we cannot achieve economic growth from the population growth. Currently we try to increase individual consumption with a stable population, but how is that going to work out if large parts of the population steadily become poorer/have to take up debt in order to consume even at the same rate?

[rory_20_uk]

The population has been taking up debt in the UK/US for years. Germany I think things are different since you actually export products with value and don't view excessive consumption / debt as practically a good thing. We have a service economy which basically involves building a pyramid with nothing at the bottom and with productivity decreasing since more people are doing jobs that are worth little since they have skills with little intrinsic value.

We've even created a new Ponzi scheme where university students load up on debt that they give to Universities. Many of them get poor value jobs and after 30 years the government writes the debt off!

In the UK, house prices need to continue to increase so people can borrow against them to purchase things that we import. Even the latest hot air about realigning the economy has been well, a load of crap since although manufacturing has increased a bit it has still fallen as a percentage of GDP with Finance getting even bigger.

[Gilrandir]

More people = more greenhouse gas emissions, more cars, more oil use, more destruction of natural habitats to grow food, more use of wood that cannot be sustained, more electricity required and at some point way in the future people will either starve, suffocate or die because some luxuries start to fail and they do not know how to survive without them. And that even before the sun eats the earth.
If a higher population leads to an increase in climate change and this in turn leads to a decrease in arable and habitable land, we're just speeding up our progress towards a catastrophe by increasing native populations everywhere.

And even if it were possible it would not eliminate bad jobs that have to be done, bad pay or wealth inequality.

It is not about just more people. It is about more compatriots and less emigrants. It may be eventually less people if the emigrant influx is stemmed. And compatriots have common sense not to emit greenhouse gases, not to destruct wildlife, save electricity...

[Beskar]

Let's make a global minimum wage.

[InsaneApache]

Let's make a global minimum wage.

You do realise that jobs are a cost to business, not a benefit.

[Fragony]

Let's make a global minimum wage.

Yeah, and a common coin to pay with it, works so well.

[Husar]

It is not about just more people. It is about more compatriots and less emigrants. It may be eventually less people if the emigrant influx is stemmed. And compatriots have common sense not to emit greenhouse gases, not to destruct wildlife, save electricity...

You're starting to confuse me, there are migrants, immigrants and emigrants, what exactly are we talking about?

You do realise that jobs are a cost to business, not a benefit.

So are resources and they still want them for some reason.
I will agree though that implementing a global minimum wage right now without any other changes would cause more problems than it would fix.
A global tax for multinational corporations would be much better.

[rory_20_uk]

The UK has finally thinking about a corporation tax that basically refuses to take into account accountancy practices like internal loans or licenses to hold IP in the cayman islands that miraculously means all profits disappear offshore but companies are charged at what they profited in the UK - and the second category is charged at a higher rate.

This should have been done about 40 years ago since the ability to do this has grown over the last decade or so. Of course if I were to be viewed as not paying my tax I can be audited for 7 years and have to fight to prove that I am innocent - but I am a small fish and for some reason there are different rules for the big fish.

This is a good, if small and tentative step in the right direction.

[Brenus]

"You do realise that jobs are a cost to business, not a benefit." Yes and no. They are aw well the one making the business. They benefit the business in making him profitable... No jobs, no business, low paid jobs, less business... The good old classes war...

[Beskar]

Yeah, and a common coin to pay with it, works so well.

I agree. It is nice not having to pay silly amounts to change currency.

[InsaneApache]

"You do realise that jobs are a cost to business, not a benefit." Yes and no. They are aw well the one making the business. They benefit the business in making him profitable... No jobs, no business, low paid jobs, less business... The good old classes war...

So are resources and they still want them for some reason.

I was just pointing out that the idea that businesses are there to create jobs is absurd. Business is there for one thing only, to make a profit.

[Fragony]

I agree. It is nice not having to pay silly amounts to change currency.

Ain't it, you insert your card, type your pincode, and take the money of the country you currently are. It costs me nothing to pay with Danish crones when I am in Denmark.

[Husar]

Ain't it, you insert your card, type your pincode, and take the money of the country you currently are. It costs me nothing to pay with Danish crones when I am in Denmark.

Depends on the bank, my current bank would charge me 2% for that. When I go abroad I want to open an account with a bank that doesn't.

[Gilrandir]

You're starting to confuse me, there are migrants, immigrants and emigrants, what exactly are we talking about?

Any or all of them taken together. They are all busybodies disturbing the natural order and quiet around the world. Let's call them -grants.

[InsaneApache]

Or to be really nasty to them let's call 'em Hughgrants.

[Gilrandir]

Or to be really nasty to them let's call 'em Hughgrants.

Or grant eaters?

[Husar]

Any or all of them taken together. They are all busybodies disturbing the natural order and quiet around the world. Let's call them -grants.

That would explain why the USA are a failed state that's disturbing the natural order everywhere.
And Israel, Australia, New Zealand and so on of course, all full of -grants or "guests" as some also call them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Or grant eaters?

I believe that title was taken already by a Ms. Divine Brown.

[Gilrandir]

That would explain why the USA are a failed state that's disturbing the natural order everywhere.
And Israel, Australia, New Zealand and so on of course, all full of -grants or "guests" as some also call them.

You can also add to the list all of the Americas and SAR to boot.