British Election: peaceful revolution

[Husar]

Like many other worldwide popular entertainments, such sports as football, basketball, ice hockey have grown into huge enterprises for earning money (tickets, broadcasting rights, advertisement placing, journalists, commentators, T-shirts and other attributes of athletes...) and thus providing a substantial segment of people with work.

Slave plantations also provided a lot of people with work...

[Gilrandir]

Slave plantations also provided a lot of people with work...

Yeah, right, Schweinsteiger and Neuer work like slaves.

[Beskar]

Yeah, right, Schweinsteiger and Neuer work like slaves.

They would be the prized Gladiator, whilst the majority would be in the slave pits. On the grander scale, their wages are in the top 1% (maybe even 0.1%).

[Husar]

Yeah, right, Schweinsteiger and Neuer work like slaves.

Reductio ad absurdum and/or completely missed the point?

My argument was that not everyone profits just because a lot of people have work and you name the examples of people who may actually profit too much from it compared to a lot of others who you previously used to justify the high prices of sports merchandise. That Schweinsteiger makes too much money does not help any of the children who have to produce the tricots for 10 cents an hour in some asian village so that some corporation can sell them for 80 bucks or whatever inflated price they cost.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Yeah, no. The northern irish won't leave (unless they were to go with scotland, they are too weak right now to stand on thier own and they wont rejoin ireland as long as the ex-IRA are still alive), and another Scottish referendum wont happen for at least another twenty years, what with it being "settled for a generation... perhaps for a lifetime" in they eyes of everyone outside the SNP.

As for falling into irrelevancy, people have been predicting we'd become that for every major event we've been in for the last half a century, we're still here.

But please, keep dreaming for the fall of a nation you have nothing to do with over the the misdeeds of people long dead against other people long dead, neither peoples you have ever met, if it helps you sleep at night.

I want to see every nation collapse into devolution. I'ts nothing to do with the UK - I love the various countries and wouldnt like to see their aggregate influence reduced

You just live under a monarchy. What is wrong with you? I'd like to see monarchies and the concept of nation states go away

My own nation is not exempt from this feeling. I'd like to see it devolve or break-up too.let people experiment with new ways of governing themselves and living their lives.

We live in an age of great centralization. It could just as easily be followed by dissolution. Start in the places of least resistance. That place today is the UK.People say it will happen until it happens. Then they say that it happened.

[Pannonian]

I want to see every nation collapse into devolution. I'ts nothing to do with the UK - I love the various countries and wouldnt like to see their aggregate influence reduced

You just live under a monarchy. What is wrong with you? I'd like to see monarchies and the concept of nation states go away

My own nation is not exempt from this feeling. I'd like to see it devolve or break-up too.let people experiment with new ways of governing themselves and living their lives.

We live in an age of great centralization. It could just as easily be followed by dissolution. Start in the places of least resistance. That place today is the UK.People say it will happen until it happens. Then they say that it happened.

So you're in favour of imposing your ideals on other peoples and letting them deal with the consequences. Were you a neo-con last decade?

[Beskar]

You just live under a monarchy. What is wrong with you?

Reminds me of this.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I believe that he will put the referendum off until he can extract massive concessions from Brussels, and that then he will use the new position to campaign AGAINST a vote to split. If he can't exact the concessions,y bet is no referendum at all.

The bold part is very explicitly the plan - Cameron is pro-Europe he's just not pro all the regulation. However, he has also said that he will allow a referendum regardless and if he can't exact de-centralisation from the EU he won't defend the status quo.

You may think you understand the UK but the fact is we have very little in common with you Americans. Americans are the people who left the oppression of Eureop so they could oppress other people even more in the "New World", slavery is a purely colonial thing that was illegal in the UK and most of Europe even before colonialism really got started.

An American friend of mine was over during the referendum, she said people were emailing her excitedly going "what's it like there right now" after it was a No - her response to them was "nobody here cares, maybe in London, but not here."

The only real concern in England regarding Scottish independence was where we would base our missile Subs. Even taking account of the oil reserves the fact is that Soctland is a net drag on the UK economy and the public purse, and now that they've decided to vote in one party across the board they've become a genuine political problem which might actually require amputation. Northern Ireland is in an even worse state, decades of Civil War have wrecked it's economy and it didn't produce anything of special value before, Wales was valuable but its mines are mostly tapped out and it, too, is a net drag.

Basically, all the money in the UK is made in England and most of the money in England is made in London.

Now, given that you want to see Europe fracture into hundreds of pieces that presumably means you want war (it's the inevitable result of the ensuring economic collapse) so what kind of war would you like, Nuclear or post-apocalyptic?

[ICantSpellDawg]

The bold part is very explicitly the plan - Cameron is pro-Europe he's just not pro all the regulation. However, he has also said that he will allow a referendum regardless and if he can't exact de-centralisation from the EU he won't defend the status quo.

You may think you understand the UK but the fact is we have very little in common with you Americans. Americans are the people who left the oppression of Eureop so they could oppress other people even more in the "New World", slavery is a purely colonial thing that was illegal in the UK and most of Europe even before colonialism really got started.

An American friend of mine was over during the referendum, she said people were emailing her excitedly going "what's it like there right now" after it was a No - her response to them was "nobody here cares, maybe in London, but not here."

The only real concern in England regarding Scottish independence was where we would base our missile Subs. Even taking account of the oil reserves the fact is that Soctland is a net drag on the UK economy and the public purse, and now that they've decided to vote in one party across the board they've become a genuine political problem which might actually require amputation. Northern Ireland is in an even worse state, decades of Civil War have wrecked it's economy and it didn't produce anything of special value before, Wales was valuable but its mines are mostly tapped out and it, too, is a net drag.

Basically, all the money in the UK is made in England and most of the money in England is made in London.

Now, given that you want to see Europe fracture into hundreds of pieces that presumably means you want war (it's the inevitable result of the ensuring economic collapse) so what kind of war would you like, Nuclear or post-apocalyptic?

Stop it, we can have globally catastrophic war without nuclear apocalypse. Just you watch.

Regarding "a place to moor your missile subs" - spend the time attempting to break Shetland & the Orkney's away from Scotland. They aren't Scottish and don't support this brand of secession anyway. Just promise them greater devolution than the Scots will offer and keep all of your precious subs there.

People are the same everywhere. They may have different political opinions (or none) based on their environment, influences, or upbringing - but they are the same in general. We have an unbelievable amount of statists here and you have a ton of right-leaning anarchists over there. The vast majority of people have almost zero understanding of anything that is going on and can be swayed in any direction based on the skill of the arguer or the weight of their argument. It is just a balance and it will change this way and that over time. 80% of people are a malleable fluff conductor; heat this moment - cold the next. The rest of us like riling people up. That is what keeps the world interesting

[Greyblades]

People are the same everywhere. They may have different political opinions (or none) based on their environment, influences, or upbringing - but they are the same in general. We have an unbelievable amount of statists here and you have a ton of right-leaning anarchists over there. The vast majority of people have almost zero understanding of anything that is going on and can be swayed in any direction based on the skill of the arguer or the weight of their argument. It is just a balance and it will change this way and that over time. 80% of people are a malleable fluff conductor; heat this moment - cold the next. The rest of us like riling people up. That is what keeps the world interesting

So have you ever considered that you are part of that 80% and that your belief, that anarcho libertarianism is desirable, is also a result of your environment, influences, or upbringing?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Reminds me of this.

I like that article, thanks. I am against the American Presidential system. As I've said, I believe in crippling most forms of central power.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So have you ever considered that you are part of that 80% and that your belief, that anarcho libertarianism is desirable, is also a result of your environment, influences, or upbringing?

Of course that is possible, but it the most fun political perspective that I have held yet.
Technically, I'm a constitutional minarchist. Sometimes I call myself a Libertorian (Libertarian/Victorian).

But I am a believer in secession. You have to start in the mind; first you break away from the laws of men in your thought, then set out to work on breaking the hold of other men over laws and power.

[Montmorency]

An effort to "cripple" central power would require ongoing collectivist efforts in creating an alternative political unit that is constantly suppressing opposing centralist efforts.

The irony is of course lost on libertarians.

[Pannonian]

An effort to "cripple" central power would require ongoing collectivist efforts in creating an alternative political unit that is constantly suppressing opposing centralist efforts.

The irony is of course lost on libertarians.

I actually know people who remember a time before a strong central authority, and their own village/town used to be a regional power before said strong central authority took over. They've experienced the reality that libertarians dream about, and they have no fantasies about it. Despite their relatively greater political power back in the day, the strong central authority led to greater social connectivity, with central authority being a prerequisite for trade and business. American libertarians pretending to favour libertarianism in other countries are simply weakening others in the name of "ideals", so that they're in a relatively better position to lord it over them. It's pathetic, and it doesn't even come up front with its aims like old school imperialism.

ICSD, if your'e truly in favour of libertarianism, perhaps you can observe the first rule of libertarianism. Mind your own business.

[ICantSpellDawg]

An effort to "cripple" central power would require ongoing collectivist efforts in creating an alternative political unit that is constantly suppressing opposing centralist efforts.

The irony is of course lost on libertarians.

What you have described is what defines cancerous centralism.
The irony is lost on you.

[ICantSpellDawg]

ICSD, if your'e truly in favour of libertarianism, perhaps you can observe the first rule of libertarianism. Mind your own business.

Mind your own business in law. It says nothing of how you should comport yourself in your personal life. I can rail against gays and Jews, Christians and puppies - but I cannot outlaw them.
You can be the Pope, the Businessman, Cage fighter, philosphical socialist - whatever you choose

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

An effort to "cripple" central power would require ongoing collectivist efforts in creating an alternative political unit that is constantly suppressing opposing centralist efforts.

The irony is of course lost on libertarians.

Pompey and Caesar phoned - they want their fratricidal war back.

There is one phrase in the Bible that you have to accept regardless of your confession - "there is no new thing under the sun".

The breakup of Yugoslavia is a lesson on what happens when people want political self-dtermination, and what happens when that triggers economic collapse.

[Pannonian]

Mind your own business in law. It says nothing of how you should comport yourself in your personal life.

Your business is none of mine. My business is none of yours. Our business is none of yours.

I'd have thought an American, of all people, would understand the principle that others should not presume to preach to them how they should think. That was why youse lot went over there in the first place, wasn't it?

[Husar]

What you have described is what defines cancerous centralism.
The irony is lost on you.

You can't be serious...

[Pannonian]

Pompey and Caesar phoned - they want their fratricidal war back.

There is one phrase in the Bible that you have to accept regardless of your confession - "there is no new thing under the sun".

The breakup of Yugoslavia is a lesson on what happens when people want political self-dtermination, and what happens when that triggers economic collapse.

ICSD would be happy with that, as it promotes conditions for US hegemony, which is what he really wants (in the guise of libertarianism for others, in his prescribed form). Of course, libertarianism in a prescribed form is an oxymoron, but then that's not really what ICSD preaches. He just wants a certain form of libertarianism for others, so that they can be more easily exploited by his like.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Your business is none of mine. My business is none of yours. Our business is none of yours.

I'd have thought an American, of all people, would understand the principle that others should not presume to preach to them how they should think. That was why youse lot went over there in the first place, wasn't it?

No, people left because of destructive legal policies that forced them to, in order to stay alive or in one piece.
Your business is my business. My business is your business. We are able and encouraged to voice our opinions and proselytize to our hearts content. The line comes at the point of force, compulsion. Have you really not gotten this?

Nobody is talking about invading the UK to force our ideas on you. I'm just sitting back with the popcorn and heckling the actors. You know what that's like.
Please, preach to me.

[Pannonian]

No, people left because of destructive legal policies that forced them, in order to stay alive or in one piece.
Your business is my business. My business is your business. We are able and encouraged to voice our opinions and proselytize to our hearts content. The line comes at the point of force, compulsion. Have you really not gotten here?

Nobody is talking about invading the UK to force our ideas on you. I'm just sitting back with the popcorn and heckling the actors.

Perhaps you should learn more about Brits before you continue raffing on. We hate evangelists, of any colour.

[ICantSpellDawg]

man-up

[Montmorency]

The line comes at the point of force, compulsion.

Once again, to maintain libertarianism you would need extraordinary coercive power (i.e. "force") - and then you're clearly not libertarian at all, no?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Once again, to maintain libertarianism you would need extraordinary coercive power (i.e. "force") - and then you're clearly not libertarian at all, no?

I'm a strong believer is extraordinary coercive power. All of the dogs of war to defend oneself or those who need it to protect them from coercion.
What does this have to do with "British Election, peaceful revolution"?

My points were/are:
-This was an important election
-UKIP made a dent
-Scotland will vote in another referendum in the event that the UK has the opportunity to vote to secede from the EU
-Devolution for England is coming and could also prompt Scotland to Secede once financial benefits are cut
-Cameron is using the promise of referendum purely as a political tool to curry votes and will do anything to keep the football in play as long as possible. He wants the EU, and the best way to keep it is to not have a -referendum at all. He is exactly the same as Labour in that he has absolutely no intention of holding a referendum, merely using it as a weak threat against the EU (it won't pass, so it isn't a threat) and as a vote magnet for those who hate the EU to keep them from voting UKIP.

[Greyblades]

Of course that is possible, but it the most fun political perspective that I have held yet.
Technically, I'm a constitutional minarchist. Sometimes I call myself a Libertorian (Libertarian/Victorian).

But I am a believer in secession. You have to start in the mind; first you break away from the laws of men in your thought, then set out to work on breaking the hold of other men over laws and power.

man-up

Fair enough.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have a much better idea -

All men shall serve SPQR, we shall elect a new Augustus, we shall speak only Latin, we shall have a Pax Eterna and we shall all be free to trade, farm and make as much money as possible without having to worry about our political rights or having to make any political decisions.

I'm sold - who's with me?

All we have to do is conquer the entire world and force every government to submit.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I have a much better idea -

All men shall serve SPQR, we shall elect a new Augustus, we shall speak only Latin, we shall have a Pax Eterna and we shall all be free to trade, farm and make as much money as possible without having to worry about our political rights or having to make any political decisions.

I'm sold - who's with me?

All we have to do is conquer the entire world and force every government to submit.

That sounds terrible. The fight is what is best about life.

[Greyblades]

I have a much better idea -

All men shall serve SPQR, we shall elect a new Augustus, we shall speak only Latin, we shall have a Pax Eterna and we shall all be free to trade, farm and make as much money as possible without having to worry about our political rights or having to make any political decisions.

I'm sold - who's with me?

All we have to do is conquer the entire world and force every government to submit.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That sounds terrible. The fight is what is best about life.

Proving that what you really want is a good war - and you claim we Brits are pining for the past.