Ukraine Thread

[Brenus]

"This western expert didn't illustrate his point. He was talking of Russia's plans to partition Ukraine prescribing for a part of it a long-forgotten name and even designinig a flag for it." No. He was talking about what he though Putin was doing. And the reality of today shows he was utterly wrong.

[Strike For The South]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...edName=topNews

Bit by bit, Piece by piece, evil claims a few more feet of ground.

[Brenus]

Hmm, doesn't echo what the Western Media and NATO was saying last year?

[Gilrandir]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...edName=topNews

Bit by bit, Piece by piece, evil claims a few more feet of ground.

Meanwhile in Russia they have dug a moat on the border with D/LPR:
http://xn--80ajgarobcee6b3h.xn--p1ai...trench-100-km/
And on the otherside of the border:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...1-f0feafdd1394

[Brenus]

"Russian spring" attempts ignited all over south-eastern Ukraine in 2014 and subsequent proclamation of Novorossia show that he was totally right." Re-read chronology. Russian Spring was ignited by Nazi Coup d'Etat. So, but you might do, excepted claiming that Putin did initiate the Nazi Coup, the dear specialist got it all wrong.
Perhaps you didn't notice, but Crimea was included in the Russian Federation...

[Gilrandir]

"Russian spring" attempts ignited all over south-eastern Ukraine in 2014 and subsequent proclamation of Novorossia show that he was totally right." Re-read chronology. Russian Spring was ignited by Nazi Coup d'Etat. So, but you might do, excepted claiming that Putin did initiate the Nazi Coup, the dear specialist got it all wrong.
Perhaps you didn't notice, but Crimea was included in the Russian Federation...

As you know perfectly well, only a small portion of Maidaners qualify your understanding of nazis and only 4 ministers of the new (now ex) government belonged to the same category. If a protesting movement has 5-10% of participating feminists/gays, does it make it a feministic/gay movement? Yet you generalize, calling the whole affair a Nazi coup. Well, Mr. Impartial, you are moving in the wake of Russian propaganda. The one who studied manipulative techniques got caught by them.
As for the starting point of Russian spring, it was the Crimea occupation whence Girkin (aka Strelkov), by his own admission, moved to Slovyansk and kicked into motion (again by his own admission) the whole thing in Donbas. So Russian spring succeeded only in the areas where Russian spetznaz came.

And speaking of your good guys:
now it's officially illegal to speak of casualties even in peace time operations. I suppose, Ukrainian nazis are again to blame.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-state-secrets

On Russian military presence in Ukraine:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/co...M7jdGxKHhvX4qC

[Brenus]

I think that once again you misunderstood. The Maidaners as you qualified them were not all Nazi, but were for better wages, against corruption etc. It was initially a social movement. However, the storming of the Parliament and the expulsion of an elected President and others was organised by the Nazi, proudly standing up in front of the building with the base-ball bats...

"And speaking of your good guys": About Putin, once again you are mistaken. Putin is probably closer to your political point, as nationalist (by the way, second link doesn't work) and political control. I am a lefty, Putin not, even if US and EU media replays the Cold war (especially the Bear still qualified as bombers ).

My all point is: Putin is doing what NATO is now doing for years, so I don't see the point of fake indignation from NATO's members. The Ukrainian's Russians are doing what the Ukrainian Nationalists/Nazi did in Maiden, so what the point of the fake indignation?

As my thinking process about it, I made it clear: Annexation of someone else territory is bad. Military intervention in someone else territory is bad. I am a leftist, so less borders better is for me. I don't like nationalism, Russian or Ukrainian.
Now, this crisis wouldn't have existed if the Coup would have not happened, but it did happened. Except if you want a war in a territory where a Nuclear Plant named Chernobyl is actually built, you have to find a political solution, and this solution will be a Bosnianisation (cantonisation) of Ukraine, contrary of what think your american expert in the alleged Putin's plan. It doesn't work really in Bosnia, but better a bad peace than a good war, war that no one can win any way, except to agree with casualties European and USA don't want to heard about.

[Montmorency]

but better a bad peace than a good war

And you said you were against massive bailouts and oversized influence of banks and corporations in the international system.

[Gilrandir]

However, the storming of the Parliament and the expulsion of an elected President and others was organised by the Nazi, proudly standing up in front of the building with the base-ball bats...

How do you know? Have you been "deep in the counsels" of those you qualify as nazis?
I repeat: in all the actions of Maidan (including capture of administrative buildings) a whole spectrum of protesters was instrumental, and nazis have been only a small portion of them. The leaders of the movement (towards the end of February) have become violent, but it is no reason to call them nazis for that.

Putin is probably closer to your political point, as nationalist

I don't know what your "probably" refers to - my position or that of Putin. But in either case you are wrong. I have already said that my stance doesn't qualify the notion of nationalism (and I explained why) and as for Putin, we all seem to agree that he is a fascist (on each proper date) but not a nationalist.

second link doesn't work

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publi...ov-s-putin-war

The Ukrainian's Russians are doing what the Ukrainian Nationalists/Nazi did in Maiden

1. They are not Russians. Most of the residents of Donbas are ethnic Ukrainians. Again a gross overgeneralization, same as the nazi coup. Or do you mean aliens from Russia?
2. So Maidaners ripped up bellies of their captives, called for a foreign nation's leader to invade and held referenda to proclaim an independent state? I have already drawn comparison exposing differences of the two movements and no one disputed it.

As my thinking process about it, I made it clear: Annexation of someone else territory is bad. Military intervention in someone else territory is bad. I am a leftist, so less borders better is for me. I don't like nationalism, Russian or Ukrainian.

You may proclaim whatever you like, yet if we compare how Russia and Ukraine view the conflict, you side with Russia on all the key points:
1. Yanukovych ceased to be the president...
Ukraine: because people were cheated of their promises and stood up for their rights.
Russia and Brenus: because of the nazi coup.
2.Someone captured administrative buildings in the Crimea and held a referendum.
Ukraine: those were Russian regular army soldiers and spetznaz.
Russia and Brenus: those were local self-defense protesters.
3. There is an armed conflict in Donbas ...
Ukraine: because Russian spetznaz interfered and started the actual fighting phase.
Russia and Brenus: because local populaces revolted against the oppression of ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers.
4. The war was and is possible...
Ukraine: because Russia supplies the rebelled areas with arms and mercenaries.
Russia and Brenus: there are no Russian weapons in Donbas, Russians there are volunteers fighting for the idea.
5. Principal defeats were suffered by Ukraine and fighting is still going on...
Ukraine: because there is a sizable (8-10,000) group of Russian regular army forces who participate in and direct all military operations.
Russia and Brenus: there are no Russian regular troops in Donbas.
So it is evident, who are your favorites in the conflict.

Now, this crisis wouldn't have existed if the Coup would have not happened, but it did happened.

An artbitrary statement. I might as well say that it wouldn't have happened if Yanukovych had signed the AA treaty in November 2013, or if he hadn't proclaimed that he would in May 2013, or if Putin hadn't tired to persuade him not to, or if Yanukovych tried to negotiate with the protesters from the outset, or if Putin hadn't been elected the president of Russia for the third time, or....
The list of might-have-beens is endless and your choice of it once again manifests your attitude which once again chimes with Russia's.

Except if you want a war in a territory where a Nuclear Plant named Chernobyl is actually built

Your knowledge of Ukraine's geography and recent history seems shady. First of all, Chernobyl was shut down by president Kuchma in 2000, so it isn't functioning. And second of all, if you are to be afraid of the war engulfing Ukrainian power plants, there are others that are nearer to the fighting zone.

you have to find a political solution, and this solution will be a Bosnianisation (cantonisation) of Ukraine, contrary of what think your american expert in the alleged Putin's plan. It doesn't work really in Bosnia

What you advocate is what Putin is NOW trying to do: to push Lugandon back into Ukraine furnishing it with a veto right on all major decisions, both external and internal. If Ukrainian authorities agree to it, they will not be authorities for long, I think. What I can surmize from popular opinions, Ukrainians are ready to reconcile with the loss of the territory which otherwise will have to be rebuilt at an outrageous cost and whose population is almost totally averse to the rest of Ukraine's aspirations. So the situation is rather going Moldovan/Transdniestrian than Bosnian way.

[Gilrandir]

"This western expert didn't illustrate his point. He was talking of Russia's plans to partition Ukraine prescribing for a part of it a long-forgotten name and even designinig a flag for it." No. He was talking about what he though Putin was doing. And the reality of today shows he was utterly wrong.

"Russian spring" attempts ignited all over south-eastern Ukraine in 2014 and subsequent proclamation of Novorossia show that he was totally right.